Swoop hiring foreign scabs

[Gilles Hudicourt]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/westjet ... 1.4609563

So Swoop is hiring overseas, pilots with foreign licences.

How are they going to fly Canadian aircraft with foreign licence ?

There was a time when Canadian regulations did not allow such a thing, except in limited specific circumstances.

But ever since Sunwing, with its allies within Transport Canada opened the floodgates, any pilot with an an ICAO license can fly for a 705 carrier using an FLVC.

And this is what Swoop is now poised to do.

[Donald]

Is that for line pilots or just the sim instructors?

[complexintentions]

"Scabs" is the term used for replacement workers who work during a strike. Is Swoop or WestJet on strike? No.

Recruitment firms are used all over the world. Especially during periods of rapid expansion. But Canada is special and so somehow using a major, reputable agency like CAE is offensive? Foreign license validations are hardly exclusive to Canada, btw.

I realize that emotions are running high, but come on. Canada is looking more and more like a hillbilly nation. You don't have to like what they're doing but at least characterize it accurately.

[GRK2]

A scab is a union term generally applied to a worker who refuses to join coworkers in a strike. Sometimes applied to members of a non-striking union who pass through a striking union's picket line or someone who refuses to join a union. Scab may refer to someone who works (or provides workers) during a strike.

Just so we're all clear.

I see quite a few references to "Scab" labour by a few posters here. If there's no strike, there's no scabbing. Period. Having said that...(overused statement...right?) I do seriously agree that WJ management is underhanded and very anti labour in this case. Having gone through a pilot ALPA certification years ago, right up to a strike date, I know how this is emotional for many. I fully support your needs and hope you all get a good and fair deal here. It's not the pilot group at WJ lowering the bar, it's the bunch at the management who are endorsing the terms. I wouldn't want to be a TFW pilot here or someone joining asa Whoops new hire.

I have no chips in this game any more, but hope for the future of the industry that some sort of stability comes from this. It's being going on for more years than I can recall...50 at least.

[tbaylx]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/westjet ... 1.4609563

So Swoop is hiring overseas, pilots with foreign licences.

How are they going to fly Canadian aircraft with foreign licence ?

There was a time when Canadian regulations did not allow such a thing, except in limited specific circumstances.

But ever since Sunwing, with its allies within Transport Canada opened the floodgates, any pilot with an an ICAO license can fly for a 705 carrier using an FLVC.

And this is what Swoop is now poised to do.

No they aren't. They put up a temporary contract to bring in line indoc pilots for 3 weeks to get their own line indoc pilots checked out. Just like Jetsgo did years ago, this ins't a recent development.
The contract is open to Canadians too so feel free to apply if you're qualified.

[Jimmy2]

Is Sky Regional on your radar too Gilles? They are hiring foreign pilots now.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Is Sky Regional on your radar too Gilles? They are hiring foreign pilots now.

Thanks for the info. Didn't know.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

705.106 (1) Subject to subsection (3), no air operator shall permit a person to act and no person shall act as the pilot-in-command, second-in-command or cruise relief pilot of an aircraft unless the person
(a) holds the licence, ratings and endorsements required by Part IV;

(3) An air operator may permit a person to act and a person may act as the pilot-in-command or second-in-command of an aircraft where the person does not meet the
requirements of subsection (1), if
(a) the aircraft is operated on a training, ferry or positioning flight; or
(b) the air operator
(i) is authorized to do so in its air operator certificate,
and
(ii) complies with the Commercial Air Service Standard (which are below)


725.106 (6) Use of a Person not Qualified in Accordance with the Canadian Aviation Regulations to Act as Pilot-in-Command or Second-in-Command (refers to subparagraph 705.106(3)(b)(ii) of the Canadian Aviation Regulations)

Authority may be given for other than an air operator employee pilot to occupy a flight crew seat when training, conducting line indoctrination training, and while the first air operator flight crews are completing consolidation and crew pairing minimum flight time requirements on a new aeroplane type.

The pilot shall:

(a) provide a resume, proof of background on the type of aeroplane, and recent experience appropriate to the training to be given; and

(b) hold the appropriate licence, ratings and endorsements. Where the pilot holds a foreign pilot licence, the licence and (as applicable) the instrument rating shall be validated by Transport Canada - Civil Aviation.

The pilot may be authorized to conduct pilot checks provided the requirements of the Company Check Pilot Manual (TP6533) are met with the exception of the minimum employment time with the air operator.

A foreign licensed pilot may be granted authority for training and checking only when a Canadian licensed pilot is not available.

During revenue flights foreign licensed pilots shall not replace Canadian licensed pilots. They can act as qualified pilot in replacement of a training pilot where the training pilot is authorized to occupy the jump seat for the purpose of crew pairing requirements (section 725.108) or transition line indoctrination (subsection 725.124(33)).

[CZBBYYZPilot]

Is Sky Regional on your radar too Gilles? They are hiring foreign pilots now.

Uh...no. No foreign pilots at Sky Regional as far as I know.

[CZBBYYZPilot]

Just like Jetsgo did years ago, this ins't a recent development.

Oh ok, no big deal, Jetsgo did it. They were reputable, great that makes me feel a lot better...NOT!

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Stoop Airlines

[tbaylx]

Just like Jetsgo did years ago, this ins't a recent development.

Oh ok, no big deal, Jetsgo did it. They were reputable, great that makes me feel a lot better...NOT!

The point, since it seems to have gone over your head, is that a start up commonly employs contract line indoc pilots. It's not a foreign pilot conspiracy under every rock.

[FL410AV8R]

Just like Jetsgo did years ago, this ins't a recent development.

Oh ok, no big deal, Jetsgo did it. They were reputable, great that makes me feel a lot better...NOT!

The point, since it seems to have gone over your head, is that a start up commonly employs contract line indoc pilots. It's not a foreign pilot conspiracy under every rock.

Actually, I think it is you that is missing the point. Swoop is NOT a startup. It is a wholly owned and controlled subsidiary of an extremely profitable multi-billion dollar company (52 consecutive quarters) that is doing it's utmost to undermine what used to be one of the most loyal and motivated pilot groups on the planet. All the money being spent on setting up a separate company with lots of duplicated infrastructure, contracting services from WestJet (presumably at current WestJet rates), painting aeroplanes, marketing etc by far outweighs the cost of just paying WestJet pilots their current wage and marketing the already announced Basic Economy fare. If someone wants to buy just a seat and seatbelt that option is now available to them.

Maybe someone can answer me this. How can TC possibly approve a foreign pilot with little and possibly no local (Canadian) knowledge to be a training pilot on a Canadian aircraft, with Canadian pilot trainees, under Canadian CARS in Canadian airspace. To me, it is akin to asking your vet to perform open heart surgery. He has skills and experience but none specific to the required task.

[WeedPro2000]

All the money being spent on setting up a separate company with lots of duplicated infrastructure, contracting services from WestJet (presumably at current WestJet rates), painting aeroplanes, marketing etc by far outweighs the cost of just paying WestJet pilots their current wage and marketing the already announced Basic Economy fare.

Ya, why don't they just do like Air Canada, Delta, and United did with Tango, Zip, Ted and Song?

[FL410AV8R]

All the money being spent on setting up a separate company with lots of duplicated infrastructure, contracting services from WestJet (presumably at current WestJet rates), painting aeroplanes, marketing etc by far outweighs the cost of just paying WestJet pilots their current wage and marketing the already announced Basic Economy fare.

Ya, why don't they just do like Air Canada, Delta, and United did with Tango, Zip, Ted and Song?

That is exactly what they are doing, trying to set up an airline within an airline.

There is no original idea here. Over the years we collectively laughed at these previous "airline within an airline" experiments yet here we are flogging the same old dead horse expecting different results. That is pretty close to the popular definition of lunacy, doing the same thing but expecting different results.

[flyzam]

Oh ok, no big deal, Jetsgo did it. They were reputable, great that makes me feel a lot better...NOT!

The point, since it seems to have gone over your head, is that a start up commonly employs contract line indoc pilots. It's not a foreign pilot conspiracy under every rock.

Maybe someone can answer me this. How can TC possibly approve a foreign pilot with little and possibly no local (Canadian) knowledge to be a training pilot on a Canadian aircraft, with Canadian pilot trainees, under Canadian CARS in Canadian airspace. To me, it is akin to asking your vet to perform open heart surgery. He has skills and experience but none specific to the required task.

oh oh I can answer this. It's something called ICAO. It is what enables you to fly those same airplanes in foreign airspaces without having to go learn all their regulations and get licenses. Or would you prefer that you have to get an FAA license to fly in the US?

And don't tell me 'oh but it is a Canadian plane!!" It's a 737. The only thing the person would need to learn is the SOP's in detail.

[FL410AV8R]

The point, since it seems to have gone over your head, is that a start up commonly employs contract line indoc pilots. It's not a foreign pilot conspiracy under every rock.

Maybe someone can answer me this. How can TC possibly approve a foreign pilot with little and possibly no local (Canadian) knowledge to be a training pilot on a Canadian aircraft, with Canadian pilot trainees, under Canadian CARS in Canadian airspace. To me, it is akin to asking your vet to perform open heart surgery. He has skills and experience but none specific to the required task.

oh oh I can answer this. It's something called ICAO. It is what enables you to fly those same airplanes in foreign airspaces without having to go learn all their regulations and get licenses. Or would you prefer that you have to get an FAA license to fly in the US?

And don't tell me 'oh but it is a Canadian plane!!" It's a 737. The only thing the person would need to learn is the SOP's in detail.

Incorrect. ICAO allows me to OPERATE a home country registered aircraft in foreign airspace NOT TRAIN foreign pilots in foreign airspace in foreign aircraft. If I wanted to train US pilots in US aircraft in US airspace I would absolutely have to get an FAA licence along with permission to work in the US. Big difference. Try again.

[flyzam]

Maybe someone can answer me this. How can TC possibly approve a foreign pilot with little and possibly no local (Canadian) knowledge to be a training pilot on a Canadian aircraft, with Canadian pilot trainees, under Canadian CARS in Canadian airspace. To me, it is akin to asking your vet to perform open heart surgery. He has skills and experience but none specific to the required task.

oh oh I can answer this. It's something called ICAO. It is what enables you to fly those same airplanes in foreign airspaces without having to go learn all their regulations and get licenses. Or would you prefer that you have to get an FAA license to fly in the US?

And don't tell me 'oh but it is a Canadian plane!!" It's a 737. The only thing the person would need to learn is the SOP's in detail.

Incorrect. ICAO allows me to OPERATE a home country registered aircraft in foreign airspace NOT TRAIN foreign pilots in foreign airspace in foreign aircraft. If I wanted to train US pilots in US aircraft in US airspace I would absolutely have to get an FAA licence along with permission to work in the US. Big difference. Try again.

You're beyond help. ICAO DOES allow for the training of Foreign Pilots in Foreign Airpaces in foreign aircraft under the regulations of the local authority. This is exactly what is happening in this case. This is why an ICAO license is required. This is done all around the world.

It also allows for the standardization of flying throughout the world and allows people to transfer their skills in other airspaces. If you missed that point you are just arguing for the sake of arguing and the childlike ability to be right.

If you were after the exact regulation as to how TC allows it, it is - 705.106 as already previously mentioned.

Stop acting as if Canada is some special case. This happens everywhere.

waaaa waahhhh

[FL410AV8R]

oh oh I can answer this. It's something called ICAO. It is what enables you to fly those same airplanes in foreign airspaces without having to go learn all their regulations and get licenses. Or would you prefer that you have to get an FAA license to fly in the US?

And don't tell me 'oh but it is a Canadian plane!!" It's a 737. The only thing the person would need to learn is the SOP's in detail.

Incorrect. ICAO allows me to OPERATE a home country registered aircraft in foreign airspace NOT TRAIN foreign pilots in foreign airspace in foreign aircraft. If I wanted to train US pilots in US aircraft in US airspace I would absolutely have to get an FAA licence along with permission to work in the US. Big difference. Try again.

You're beyond help. ICAO DOES allow for the training of Foreign Pilots in Foreign Airpaces in foreign aircraft under the regulations of the local authority. This is exactly what is happening in this case. This is why an ICAO license is required. This is done all around the world.

It also allows for the standardization of flying throughout the world and allows people to transfer their skills in other airspaces. If you missed that point you are just arguing for the sake of arguing and the childlike ability to be right.

If you were after the exact regulation as to how TC allows it, it is - 705.106 as already previously mentioned.

Stop acting as if Canada is some special case. This happens everywhere.

waaaa waahhhh

Wow, very mature.

While ICAO provides the framework for the recognition of foreign licences, the actual verification of credentials and granting of licence validations rests with the regulatory authority of each country, TC in this case. Possession of an ICAO licence does not guarantee approval by the regulator nor does it provide the authority to work in said country. That is authorized by the appropriate immigration department. Neither of these are a given.

Regardless of what WestJet wants or the ongoing labour dispute, these hurdles also have to be navigated and with plenty of fully qualified, licenced and trained B737 training pilots on their doorstep the granting of TFW permits would be extremely suspect and certainly open to challenges by opposed parties.

[flyzam]

ICAO DOES allow for the training of Foreign Pilots in Foreign Airpaces in foreign aircraft under the regulations of the local authority. This is exactly what is happening in this case. This is why an ICAO license is required. This is done all around the world.

While ICAO provides the framework for the recognition of foreign licences, the actual verification of credentials and granting of licence validations rests with the regulatory authority of each country, TC in this case.

Exactly what I said. You want to argue, yet say the same thing.

Possession of an ICAO licence does not guarantee approval by the regulator nor does it provide the authority to work in said country. That is authorized by the appropriate immigration department. Neither of these are a given.

Do they call you Captain Obvious?

Once again, this is done all around the world, but when it is done here, it really does draw out the sniffling doesn't it.

cue, the excuses why Canada is so so different.