Norwegian Air

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Old fella
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by Old fella »

complexintentions wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:20 am
Redwine wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:20 pmThis shit airline caters to the millennium travelers who have no clue what air travel used to be like.
You mean incredibly expensive and inaccessible?

I though elitism had been made illegal in Canada! :mrgreen:
:lol:
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by Eric Janson »

For the next 2 weeks you can travel in style between Gatwick and JFK on Norwegian.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... s-for-250/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelgol ... 516860c580
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complexintentions
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by complexintentions »

Now THAT's my idea of a wetlease! :mrgreen:
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by rookiepilot »

That's more like it. AC's upgrade price is ridiculous on this route. (Well YYZ - LHR anyway)
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dumbbell daddy
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by dumbbell daddy »

To Jack and Complex,

Do you think they will ever open up a Canadian base like they have in the US, and hire on the 737/787?

Might be wishful thinking but stranger things have happened........
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by Legacy »

dumbbell daddy wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:58 am To Jack and Complex,

Do you think they will ever open up a Canadian base like they have in the US, and hire on the 737/787?

Might be wishful thinking but stranger things have happened........
It’s your wishful thinking to work for sub par wages?
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by complexintentions »

Legacy wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:26 pmIt’s your wishful thinking to work for sub par wages?
Asks a Canadian pilot? Ironic much? :mrgreen:

DD,

No idea about Norwegian's plans in Canada other than they want to operate flights here. A lot of them. The long-range narrowbodies will change the economics of the transatlantic market (already are) and that won't sit well with legacies who make most of their profit on those routes.

But as to bases I don't know.
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by Arnie Pye »

Legacy wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:26 pm It’s your wishful thinking to work for sub par wages?
I did a quick google search and see that an FO starts at 5000 Euro base salary for the wide body and 4000 for the 737. That converts to $7500/6000 CAD per month or $90,000/72,000 per year.

After 5 years at Encore what does a year one FO make at WestJet again?? Air Canada?? We aren't really in a position to be calling norwegian's kettle black.
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by complexintentions »

There are also options for EU citizens to reduce their tax burden depending on the willingness to commute. That puts a lot more of those "sub-par" wages in the pocket than in Canada. Combine that with the ability to live in a cheaper city in another country - not really possible in Canada unless you plan to somehow commute from Detroit. :roll:

It's not a simple comparison but yeah that's why I had to laugh at loud at a Canadian pilot getting self-righteous about wages anywhere else! :mrgreen:
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by FL320 »

Arnie Pye wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:18 pm
Legacy wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:26 pm It’s your wishful thinking to work for sub par wages?
I did a quick google search and see that an FO starts at 5000 Euro base salary for the wide body and 4000 for the 737. That converts to $7500/6000 CAD per month or $90,000/72,000 per year.

After 5 years at Encore what does a year one FO make at WestJet again?? Air Canada?? We aren't really in a position to be calling norwegian's kettle black.
Although I agree first years FO and Capt pay is sub par here in Canada - an insult to our profession - don't be impressed by the foreign currency. If you convert CAD to EURO, you should also convert the cost of living. Living with 5000 euros/month is more or less the same as 5000 CAD here. Taxes are equivalent, I am dual citizen and have been living 20 years in Europe, trust me it's not greener except if you decide to live in eastern Europe (but not for me..).
What is better in Europe from my point of vue is that they get a better return from the taxes than what we get in Canada: better roads, better healthcare system, better infrastructures, free university in some countries, etc..

Don't forget that in Europe 95% of the time pilots have to pay for the type rating to get their jet job (5% are the lucky winners Cadets hired by the majors). Ok some of them get the chance to start straight after training at Norwegian on a shiny jet at 5000E but they mostly have a total debt of 120 000 euros (I know few guys in this situation). Those who joined Norwegian already type rated on the jet most probably had to fly at another LCC on the same shitty conditions as at JAZZ or Encore
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by Legacy »

Arnie Pye wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:18 pm
Legacy wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:26 pm It’s your wishful thinking to work for sub par wages?
I did a quick google search and see that an FO starts at 5000 Euro base salary for the wide body and 4000 for the 737. That converts to $7500/6000 CAD per month or $90,000/72,000 per year.

After 5 years at Encore what does a year one FO make at WestJet again?? Air Canada?? We aren't really in a position to be calling norwegian's kettle black.
And I believe you are looking at TOP scale. Not starting
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by Arnie Pye »

I just did a quick google search. http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Norwegian came back with some numbers that say they were updated as of March, 2018. Obviously the person that updated the data was a Captain because it clearly shows an increase in pay from a Base to a higher salary. If you have more accurate numbers, please do post but I believe that I have posted base numbers and not top numbers.

Now as for comparing cost of living, let's take the base that is common to both the 737 and the 787 - Barcelona. Meets your requirement of being a western european city.

Another quick google search turned up the following information:

Consumer Prices in Barcelona are 17.24% lower than in Toronto
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Barcelona are 21.50% lower than in Toronto
Rent Prices in Barcelona are 29.24% lower than in Toronto
Restaurant Prices in Barcelona are 15.54% lower than in Toronto
Groceries Prices in Barcelona are 31.29% lower than in Toronto

Domestic Beer (0.5 liter draught) 36.53% lower than in Toronto
Imported Beer (0.33 liter bottle) 44.46% lower than in Toronto
Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 28.06% lower than in Toronto
Apartment (3 bedroom) in City Centre 31.5% lower than in Toronto
Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment in City Centre 28.44% lower than in Toronto
If you don't want to live in the city centre, costs outside of the city centre are still 30-40% lower than in Toronto

Sure, Barcelona isn't for everyone, what with the terrible Spanish food and all the lack of deicing equipment at the airport and all.

Norwegian isn't the only company to ask you to pay for your type rating. I believe Scoot in Singapore also does this. I am a little surprised that companies are still getting away with this in today's market. I am pretty sure if you shopped around you could find a 787 type rating for a lot less than $120k. I had a hard time finding a firm price but it looks like the range would be around $20-30,000 USD. A colleague of mine works for Boeing flight training in BBN and he thought that sounded about right excluding hotel and food etc.
$120k sounds like you're in debt from a 1. College/University program, 2. Flight Training to the CPL level and 3. a Type Rating. If you're going to stack all of those prices together, to be fair you had better start asking how many Encore pilots are also starting day one with debt on their student loans.
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by complexintentions »

Norwegian do not charge EUR 120,000 for a type rating. If you're rated on B777/787 there's no bond. Nothing. If rated on B737, B747-400/-8 or B757/B767, the bond is EUR 30,000. For any other rating, the bond is EUR 40,000. Duration 3 years, declining on a prorated monthly basis. Pretty standard stuff. Canadian pilots pay for the ratings by accepting shit wages in the early years. This is better, how?

It's hard to quantify living in BCN over pretty much any Canadian city, in terms of lifestyle. But you neglected to mention the real kicker - Spanish personal tax rates versus Canadian. An extremely important factor in comparing NET income which really, is all that matters. So you're putting more in your pocket, and taking less out to live. There's far more to it than just the raw figures. You actually have to sit down and figure out your personal situation.

I get it that not everyone wants to leave the Canadian paradise to live in some hellhole like, um, Spain where the food, wine, women, and weather are so, um, inferior to Canada. :mrgreen: But it's a bit painful to witness open hostility when it's apparently based on nothing more than ignorance of the facts.

And perhaps fear, of the competition coming.

No one's forcing anyone to join. You may, however, one day be forced to compete. And that's the REAL reason for the sniping. Otherwise why would anyone care? Touching concern for their aviating brethren?

Yeah, right. :mrgreen:
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by FL320 »

:lol:
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by dumbbell daddy »

complexintentions wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:48 am
I get it that not everyone wants to leave the Canadian paradise to live in some hellhole like, um, Spain where the food, wine, women, and weather are so, um, inferior to Canada. :mrgreen: But it's a bit painful to witness open hostility when it's apparently based on nothing more than ignorance of the facts.

And perhaps fear, of the competition coming.
If you really want to be disturbed read the 737/320 pay thread. It’s shocking to see a large amount of guys defend the low pay in Canada on the grounds that “it’s the price you pay to live in Canada.” Delusional!
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by broompusher »

Facts..(not to be confused with, "I heard from my buddy", or , "That's what the union told us", or "I read somewhere"). So, please, feel free to draw your conclusions based on accurate information (good or bad..that's entirely up to you)

Below is info on B787 pay scales ONLY. I do not know about the B737 stuff so I will not comment on it. The numbers here are for the CDG (Paris) base. There are minor variances from base to base because each country in Europe has slightly different different labour laws, the contracts in each base do have variations according to the law of the country that you're based in.

For clarity, the pay scales in blue are yrs 1-3, and the the ones in white are yrs 4-6. I know it says 1-3, however that is meant as yrs1-3 on the formula pay. Sorry, not everyone speaks Canadianese.

1. There is no longer an upfront bond required (I have never agreed with upfront bonds, so good riddance to them). Just a Sign a contract that states you agree
to Stay 3 years.
2. Pay scale Years 1-3 are fixed pay (up to 75hrs in France <In accordance with French Law>). Anything above 75hrs is at a rate of an additional 20% pay/hr.
(attached below).
3. Pay scale years 4-6 are more of a "formula pay" set up. Min guarantee is more than yrs 1-3, yet based on 10 hours less (65hrs V. 75hrs) and the hourly block pay
above 65hrs is more.
4. overtime (AKA BDO..Bought Days Off). They are 10% of your monthly guarantee per day. IF you choose to sell a day off and your min guarantee is, for example,
5000 Euros, your would be paid 500 Euros for each day that you sold, plus additional flight pay if you where to exceed 75hrs in the first 3 yrs of employment, or
65hrs for 4th yr onward.

*All numbers shown are in Euros
**RCA..Relief Captain (Essentially a Left Seat Qualified Senior FO)


I am not trying to get into A D**K swinging contest, I am only trying to put accurate information out there for all of you. If you think this is crap pay and your gig is better and/or pays more, I am sincerely happy for you. Enjoy your job. If you conclude that this is appalling pay and/or conditions and that anyone working there is furthering the Race to the bottom, that is of course your opinion. I would disagree with you on that, but that would be MY opinion.





Is this place perfect? Of course not.
Are they trying to make this a better place to work? Yes.
Do I enjoy working here? You bet!
Would you (if you have the legal right to work in UK/EU)? Only you can answer that.
Will Norwegian ever open a base in Canada? That's anybody's guess.
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Bond.jpeg (599.63 KiB) Viewed 4078 times
yrs1-3.png
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yrs4-6.png
yrs4-6.png (441.61 KiB) Viewed 4078 times
WTF, over
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Re: Norwegian Ai

Post by FL320 »

What is the top paysacale for FO and PIC?
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by RVR6000 »

dumbbell daddy wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:56 am
complexintentions wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:48 am
I get it that not everyone wants to leave the Canadian paradise to live in some hellhole like, um, Spain where the food, wine, women, and weather are so, um, inferior to Canada. :mrgreen: But it's a bit painful to witness open hostility when it's apparently based on nothing more than ignorance of the facts.

And perhaps fear, of the competition coming.
If you really want to be disturbed read the 737/320 pay thread. It’s shocking to see a large amount of guys defend the low pay in Canada on the grounds that “it’s the price you pay to live in Canada.” Delusional!

The 320 pay at Air Canada is about the same as a wide-body Norwegian pay posted above. Not sure what’s some of you guys are trying to prove, the Norwegian scale works out to $220k for a 80 hr month after currency conversion.
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by complexintentions »

Yeah, but to get Air Canada A320 pay you have to live in Canada and fly an...A320.

Both dealbreakers for me! :mrgreen:
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by Joe Blow Schmo »

Arnie Pye wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:18 pm
Legacy wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:26 pm It’s your wishful thinking to work for sub par wages?
I did a quick google search and see that an FO starts at 5000 Euro base salary for the wide body and 4000 for the 737. That converts to $7500/6000 CAD per month or $90,000/72,000 per year.

After 5 years at Encore what does a year one FO make at WestJet again?? Air Canada?? We aren't really in a position to be calling norwegian's kettle black.
Luckily for Norwegian, if they opened a Canadian base they could save a bunch of money by offering "Canadian" salary levels :smt040
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