Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

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C.W.E.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by C.W.E. » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:34 pm

Nothing to write home about.
My mentioning the issue of hand writing the answers was merely to point out that T.C. has made passing the exams easier.

Which helps contribute to the imbalance of jobs to licensed pilots thus low wages.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by sampsonmcd » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:28 pm

CBC Marketplace is even investigating how dirty AC/WJ/Porter are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZUVbQrVZIU
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Anticyclone » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:05 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:27 pm
When I wrote the exams for the ATPL the answers were all hand written and were marked based on what you actually knew as shown in your hand written answers, in today's world you have the multiple choice crutch to help you.

Here is the airplane that was used in the exam.

http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acdata_php/ ... 049_en.php
WOW Constellation youre lucky mate.. i cant say i go back that much but I managed to use the loran C, bottom line guys "What you sow you reap" as long as we have guys begging for jobs they can make whatever they want with us and sooner or later they will ask the toilets to be cleaned, for God sake they have more people on their waiting list then IKEA store opening. :prayer:
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Airbrake » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:50 pm

https://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/m_episod ... e-surfaces


I guess it doesn’t matter who does the cleaning. No one is doing it well.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Anticyclone » Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:38 am

Airbrake wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:50 pm

I guess it doesn’t matter who does the cleaning. No one is doing it well.
In fact in does matter as these long cleaning hours spent by the crews are taken away from flight preparation so its a bloody safety issue, its a latent threat that is yet to say its name.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by rookiepilot » Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:27 pm

Sit on the blanket (to soften today's rock hard seats).

About what it's fit for.

Use own fleece for blanket.

Consider tray like touching toxic waste.

Airplanes or a city bus?

No difference except length of travel.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Gino Under » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:10 pm

I’d never offer my services to an airline that expected me to cross seat belts, collect garbage, or throw out puke bags as part of my job. Not even as an “owner”. That’s not a pilot’s job and it isn’t anywhere within his/her area of responsibility. It’s got nothing to do with being above my dignity or beneath my dignity. Pilots should be focused on flight plans, fuel requirements, enroute and forecast weather, not to mention meeting ridiculous 25 minute turnaround times their cheap employer expects of them.
We may not all agree on this stupidity, so whatever floats yer boat. This BS stops when professional pilots say it does.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by complexintentions » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:44 am

Some contradictory arguments. On the one hand it's "easy" to become a pilot, at the same time there's an "endless supply of young pilots competing for jobs"...which to me, means...not easy to become a professional (ie, paid) pilot...?

Which is it? Hard or easy? In 2018, not 50 years ago, or 50 years from now.

Also, obtaining a pilot's license is not the same as becoming a professional pilot. And I don't think either are "easy". For the license, the educational requirements may present a low barrier to entry, but the costs most certainly do not. And as far as gaining employment, ideally to a place in the industry where the pay and lifestyle are satisfactory, sorry, but for the vast majority I would hardly describe that as "easy".

Oh, yeah. Cleaning. I won't do it. Ever. Not because I'm too "good" for it, but because my time is worth too much now to make it worth my while, and my employer agrees. But it took a lot of years to get to this place. And that's really the core of the argument - pilots grooming planes only serves to illustrate that they are not valuing their time sufficiently, nor is their employer. Never mind what it says to the traveling public.

Not sure why people argue in favour of it, but then again most pilots in Canada seem to have pretty low self-esteem.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Blueontop » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:42 pm

First thing, lets ignore for a moment what our opinion as pilots is regarding grooming aircraft in between turns. Let’s look at it from the perspective of John Q flying public and ask the average person on the street if they think their pilots clean the aircraft. Most ppl are surprised to learn that pilots can be required to clean the aircraft during turns. This shows to me that it is not considered a duty of pilots to be expected to clean and groom an aircraft by the average passenger.

Secondly, I’ve read the entire thread and have yet to read which operations actually require the pilots to groom the aircraft besides WT. It’s only been a debate on the principle of pilots grooming instead of answering the OPs question. Perhaps the OPs question can actually be answered as I’m interested in knowing as well.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by fayuyang » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:46 pm

agree 100%
HansDietrich wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:20 pm
If you think that a 737 Captain or First Officer should clean planes, you need to travel a bit more and see the world. Get that 703 mentality or whatever PTSD you may be experiencing due to your previous abuse as a small time pilot and get in line with the rest of the world. Spare me the "What about paying for a type rating?" argument. No real airline (Lufthansa, KLM, BA, SAS, Swiss) will ask you to pay for the type rating.

PILOTS SHOULD NOT CLEAN PLANES, EXCEPT THE AREA WHERE THEY WORKED.... (Your cockpit seat)
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by florch » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:25 am

Anticyclone wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:38 am

In fact in does matter as these long cleaning hours spent by the crews are taken away from flight preparation so its a bloody safety issue, its a latent threat that is yet to say its name.
Bingo. I have way more important things to do from a safety and efficiency perspective. Pilots have or should have lots going on in their minds, and this is a distraction. They can find someone to do it at a fraction of my pay.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Meatservo » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:03 pm

Anyway why can't it be about "status"? I understand the importance of humility but humans have organised themselves along these lines as long as there has been organized work.

I also think we can disregard Chuck's old saw about formal education as a red herring. Degree of formal education is only the smallest part of what confers "status" to a position. Chuck fails to recognize his experiences outside a formal classroom setting, leading up to his eventual "status" as a professional pilot, are also "education" but again, that's a red herring. There are CEOs who started in Chuck's era with little or no education. The matter of education dictating one's status is a total red herring, and it's the only one in Chuck's toolbox.

Everybody knows about this. Some company executives like to give people work that is below their station as a form of institutionalized debasement. It's actually a management principle and it's formulated to let you know "your place"- in the interests of being able to capitalize on the things that come with a humble, or should I say humiliated, cadre of highly-paid specialists, If you're subject to it, you must know that this is being done deliberately. However, those office guys are not cleaning the toilets in their offices. Moreover, neither are their secretaries, assistants, mail-room clerks, IT specialists, marketing associates, filing clerks, CSAs, baggage handlers, tug drivers, et cetera. Those people are all "too important" to shovel biowaste out of seat-pockets: It's just you that isn't.

The guys in the tower are not cleaning the tower bathrooms. (Well, they do in Whitehorse, but that's part of a scheme they have cooked up and it's not because their boss makes them) Those guys are "too important".

Cleaning and grooming is a job. And it's not my job. I'm not afraid to say it, and I don't see why I should be. There are people in the world who have that job. I don't look down on them, but the choices I made in life are different and I don't have that job. None of you have that job. I get that some of you work for small companies and everyone wears several hats. There is satisfaction to be found in that type of company. But the rest of you- if you find that the people who are answering phones, photocopying flight plans, selling tickets, fixing the ground equipment, filing training records, et cetera, are not also cleaning the shitters and wiping out the microwave and emptying the bins in the employee lunchroom and passenger waiting area, then chances are you work at a company where some people are too important to do that, and they are not doing so because it's not their bloody job. You are being made to do that job by someone who stands to gain from your understanding that they don't think you're all that important. Ask yourself why. It's because they want you to believe it. It makes it easier for them to pay you less. I bet not even Chuck would be willing to stand for that.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by C.W.E. » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:01 pm

You are being made to do that job by someone who stands to gain from your understanding that they don't think you're all that important. Ask yourself why. It's because they want you to believe it. It makes it easier for them to pay you less. I bet not even Chuck would be willing to stand for that.
I flew airplanes to earn a living and as my experience progressed so did my pay scale go up.

At the end of my career all my clients came from referral by other clients.

When I accepted a new client the process started with them depositing ten thousand U.S.D. in my bank to cover initial expenses and my hourly, daily or monthly charges were never ever an issue.

The best paying and best working conditions was flying for the movie and TV industries, the worse flying job was the air show circuit even though it paid well.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Hangry » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:08 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:01 pm
You are being made to do that job by someone who stands to gain from your understanding that they don't think you're all that important. Ask yourself why. It's because they want you to believe it. It makes it easier for them to pay you less. I bet not even Chuck would be willing to stand for that.
I flew airplanes to earn a living and as my experience progressed so did my pay scale go up.

At the end of my career all my clients came from referral by other clients.

When I accepted a new client the process started with them depositing ten thousand U.S.D. in my bank to cover initial expenses and my hourly, daily or monthly charges were never ever an issue.

The best paying and best working conditions was flying for the movie and TV industries, the worse flying job was the air show circuit even though it paid well.
This thread is about airlines.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by digits_ » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:37 pm

Meatservo wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:03 pm
Anyway why can't it be about "status"? I understand the importance of humility but humans have organised themselves along these lines as long as there has been organized work.
Good point. If the employer values status and image towards pax, enforced by uniform policies including white shirts and ties, it's hard to understand they expect you to clean the plane in your undoubtedly meticulously groomed uniformed.

It would be different if they gave you some coveralls as a "uniform". Then they wouldn't care about status and it would make sense to groom the plane (from their point of view). But now they are trying to mix both things: dress to impress and perform cleaning duties at the same time. That's a bit of a no-no.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by .80@410 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:25 pm

2 months and 4 days of no grooming.
Feels nice to have finally shed that hat.
I’m no longer morally or in principle tied to it, and I feel better at work with more time to focus on the proper job of a pilot. Mentally it’s also nice knowing WJ management is no longer able to take advantage of my free labour and pocket it in order to help make their bonuses.

In short , I no longer feel the butt - end of a long running joke cooked up by Management. It’s uplifting both mentally and physically. Hopefully the FAs are able to shed it too in their next agreement .



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