Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

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The Tenth Man
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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by The Tenth Man »

valleyboy wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:38 am When I see threads like this all I can think is "welcome to the real world" Why is it that most pilots and likely age reflected as well think a union will magically launch everyone into nirvana. It's a long and slow drawn out process. Depending on economy there might even be concessions at some point. The good news is that it will improve and the bad news people likely won't feel good about it (not everyone ever does) until about contract #4 - do the math depending on contract length. Possibly the now f/o's will be looking at left seat before you start zeroing in on the sweet spot. There is also a very anti-union attitude with management. Funny how that happens when they are forced to play by a rule book. Instead of trying to "push a chain" it's far easier to work with the union. The pilots have the same rule book.

The key is to get involved. ALPA is a good gig but only as good as participation. The vast majority, like 99.9% of the membership would rather do what pilots do best, bitch and complain and feel sorry for themselves. Support you LEC and the MEC and things will move along.
valleyboy, any angst you’re seeing from WJ pilots is not due to an unfamiliarity with the “real world”. Rather, the reactions are entirely the result of an arrogant team of inexperienced reps who believed their own BS and built up expectations way past where they should have been. The WJ pilot group has to own up and accept the mistakes they made in electing their LEC reps (<25% voter turn out) who then elected an inneffectual MEC team. Prior to certification, it wasn’t common knowledge that the 6 (9?) members of the LEC’s would be the ones who voted on who the Chairman would be.

The group will get over this. Whether or not ALPA will be their bargaining representative for the 4th contract is a good question.

Harry Markopolos
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cloak
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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by cloak »

I agree that the legitimate aspirations of WestJet pilots were not properly represented which may not matter so much if the process and the vehicle of choice by which WestJet pilot group wish to engage management in negotiations were to fundamentally change. If ALPA is to remain however, the representatives need to be those that represent all equally and can build and nurture a relationship with management and the entire pilot group, and the process of elections updated to truly involve the vast majority of pilots directly. Is this possible under ALPA and its dues? Perhaps not!
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Eric Janson
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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by Eric Janson »

Old fella wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:12 pm Pardon my airline flying ignorance but wasn’t CRM training the intent to alleviate the “ avoid flying with... “ scenario because of past cockpit conflicts. I thought that kind of stuff was past history, how can well trained professionals not get along to the point “ I don’t want to work with him/her”.
Still a thing unfortunately - not as bad as it used to be. Some combinations of personalities just don't work.

In the past I've seen Captains who I'm sure had a personality disorder - in one case it was really extreme. I've refused a fleet transfer in the past because I didn't want to fly with these people. These Captains were a great example to me of how not to do things when I became Captain. Thanks guys!

I do a lot of flights where all 3 of us are Captains. Took some getting used to but now I prefer this way of operating.

I've had a situation where the 2 other Captains had had a disagreement during the layover and were not talking to each other. Communication ran through me sitting on the jumpseat. It was a very uncomfortable flight but as long as safety wasn't being compromised I figured it was better not to intervene. I did talk to both colleagues individually about how uncomfortable the whole situation was.

I'm sure you'll find some friction on WestJet flightdecks after last years' events.
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pianokeys
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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by pianokeys »

Eric Janson wrote: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:18 am I've had a situation where the 2 other Captains had had a disagreement during the layover and were not talking to each other. Communication ran through me sitting on the jumpseat. It was a very uncomfortable flight but as long as safety wasn't being compromised I figured it was better not to intervene. I did talk to both colleagues individually about how uncomfortable the whole situation was.
Jesus haha you shoulda yelled out "We're adults, just so youre both aware." during the climb.
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180
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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by 180 »

Commutability & socialized bidding.

Living where you want to live and consistently getting a schedule that fits your family’s lifestyle are the two main reasons many choose teal over red.
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Lightchop
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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by Lightchop »

180 wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:01 am Commutability & socialized bidding.

Living where you want to live and consistently getting a schedule that fits your family’s lifestyle are the two main reasons many choose teal over red.
Funny, even as a junior pilot at my company who doesn't get what I want nearly every I am still in favor of seniority bidding. But I guess that's a personal preference.

And it's pretty easy to live anywhere you want at AC. Lots of people do it.
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180
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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by 180 »

AC doesn’t have a commuter policy and AC doesn’t have socialized bidding. The OP asked a question and I gave a factual answer why some pilots would choose to work at a WestJet. Just dealing with the facts.
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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by jpilot77 »

You can still commute without a commuting policy, Rouge has socialized bidding.
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180
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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by 180 »

Not for free. And not without repercussions if your intended flight goes mechanical and your back-up flight subsequently fills up and leaves you as a last minute no-show.

At Westjet, no problem, you are pay protected and they will confirm you on the next available flight to catch you up to your pairing or find something else for you. No stress, and no colourful excuses needed.
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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by cjet »

180 wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:33 pm Not for free. And not without repercussions if your intended flight goes mechanical and your back-up flight subsequently fills up and leaves you as a last minute no-show.

At Westjet, no problem, you are pay protected and they will confirm you on the next available flight to catch you up to your pairing or find something else for you. No stress, and no colourful excuses needed.
I believe that policy is changing with the new contract.

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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by 180 »

48 hours (or less) and then we’ll know the fine print. Standing by...
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fliter
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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by fliter »

Old fella wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:12 pm
altiplano wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:33 am Can you bid:
"Avoid flying with _____"?
That's a really useful bid right there.
Pardon my airline flying ignorance but wasn’t CRM training the intent to alleviate the “ avoid flying with... “ scenario because of past cockpit conflicts. I thought that kind of stuff was past history, how can well trained professionals not get along to the point “ I don’t want to work with him/her”.
You can lead the horse to water, but you can't make it drink. If someone insists on being a tool, he's gonna be a tool no matter how much CRM training you put him through. Not all cockpit dialogue is scripted; most of the time pilots are rambling about random stuff in cruise. Some of those ramblings I wish I hadn't heard. :-///
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Emily
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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by Emily »

If reports of the new deal not being as favorable as I have heard are true, it would appear that WestJet could become a feeder airline for Transat, Sunwing and Air Canada (AC), while Swoop could act as a feeder for Flair..
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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by TFTMB heavy »

Emily wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:41 am If reports of the new deal not being as favorable as I have heard are true, it would appear that WestJet could become a feeder airline for Transat, Sunwing and Air Canada (AC), while Swoop could act as a feeder for Flair..
Looks like you’re a bit behind on the news and haven’t read in the Westjet forum.
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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by co-joe »

A lot of movement is still going to happen at WestJet in the next year or two as things sort themselves out. My prediction; most of the DECs at Swoop will leave rather than stay for a forced downgrade and loss of their base even though their pay would go up slightly if they stayed. Next, Sunwing Unifor will not merge quietly with WestJet ALPA and will require mediation, but in the end most Captains there will also face forced downgrade and loss of bases, and many will leave. This will be a windfall for literally everyone who is (or will shortly be) hiring DECs including Flair, Lynx, and Porter. It will also help fill groundschools at Air Canada, and Transat.

This will have a detrimental effect on non jet type rated pilots trying to get good jobs, they will in turn be forced to focus on Jazz and Encore for career progression. It will have a great effect for those senior FOs at WestJet who will have a shot at the left seats vacated by Swoop and Sunwing Captains leaving, and getting downgraded based on date of hire. The shuttering of the pink scourge is a positive for our industry, but it will be a game of musical chairs for a year or two as it sorts itself out.
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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by ant_321 »

co-joe wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 9:53 am A lot of movement is still going to happen at WestJet in the next year or two as things sort themselves out. My prediction; most of the DECs at Swoop will leave rather than stay for a forced downgrade and loss of their base even though their pay would go up slightly if they stayed. Next, Sunwing Unifor will not merge quietly with WestJet ALPA and will require mediation, but in the end most Captains there will also face forced downgrade and loss of bases, and many will leave. This will be a windfall for literally everyone who is (or will shortly be) hiring DECs including Flair, Lynx, and Porter. It will also help fill groundschools at Air Canada, and Transat.

This will have a detrimental effect on non jet type rated pilots trying to get good jobs, they will in turn be forced to focus on Jazz and Encore for career progression. It will have a great effect for those senior FOs at WestJet who will have a shot at the left seats vacated by Swoop and Sunwing Captains leaving, and getting downgraded based on date of hire. The shuttering of the pink scourge is a positive for our industry, but it will be a game of musical chairs for a year or two as it sorts itself out.
I’m assuming you haven’t read much about the history for mergers. One theme runs constant throughout them, no bump, no flush.
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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by flying4dollars »

Emily wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:41 am If reports of the new deal not being as favorable as I have heard are true, it would appear that WestJet could become a feeder airline for Transat, Sunwing and Air Canada (AC), while Swoop could act as a feeder for Flair..
What?! Oh...first post. LOL
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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by tbaylx »

ant_321 wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 10:24 am
co-joe wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 9:53 am A lot of movement is still going to happen at WestJet in the next year or two as things sort themselves out. My prediction; most of the DECs at Swoop will leave rather than stay for a forced downgrade and loss of their base even though their pay would go up slightly if they stayed. Next, Sunwing Unifor will not merge quietly with WestJet ALPA and will require mediation, but in the end most Captains there will also face forced downgrade and loss of bases, and many will leave. This will be a windfall for literally everyone who is (or will shortly be) hiring DECs including Flair, Lynx, and Porter. It will also help fill groundschools at Air Canada, and Transat.

This will have a detrimental effect on non jet type rated pilots trying to get good jobs, they will in turn be forced to focus on Jazz and Encore for career progression. It will have a great effect for those senior FOs at WestJet who will have a shot at the left seats vacated by Swoop and Sunwing Captains leaving, and getting downgraded based on date of hire. The shuttering of the pink scourge is a positive for our industry, but it will be a game of musical chairs for a year or two as it sorts itself out.
I’m assuming you haven’t read much about the history for mergers. One theme runs constant throughout them, no bump, no flush.
So you're suggesting 10year + Wetjet FO's awaiting an upgrade are unwilling to watch Swoop DEC's with 2 years seniority sit left seat, however they'll be ok with a 2 year SWG captain in the left seat? There might be some temporary fences but I doubt they'll be in place long before the merged seniority list dictates who holds a captain position. CoJoe has some valid considerations.
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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by MaxAuto »

tbaylx wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 6:36 pm
ant_321 wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 10:24 am
co-joe wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 9:53 am A lot of movement is still going to happen at WestJet in the next year or two as things sort themselves out. My prediction; most of the DECs at Swoop will leave rather than stay for a forced downgrade and loss of their base even though their pay would go up slightly if they stayed. Next, Sunwing Unifor will not merge quietly with WestJet ALPA and will require mediation, but in the end most Captains there will also face forced downgrade and loss of bases, and many will leave. This will be a windfall for literally everyone who is (or will shortly be) hiring DECs including Flair, Lynx, and Porter. It will also help fill groundschools at Air Canada, and Transat.

This will have a detrimental effect on non jet type rated pilots trying to get good jobs, they will in turn be forced to focus on Jazz and Encore for career progression. It will have a great effect for those senior FOs at WestJet who will have a shot at the left seats vacated by Swoop and Sunwing Captains leaving, and getting downgraded based on date of hire. The shuttering of the pink scourge is a positive for our industry, but it will be a game of musical chairs for a year or two as it sorts itself out.
I’m assuming you haven’t read much about the history for mergers. One theme runs constant throughout them, no bump, no flush.
So you're suggesting 10year + Wetjet FO's awaiting an upgrade are unwilling to watch Swoop DEC's with 2 years seniority sit left seat, however they'll be ok with a 2 year SWG captain in the left seat? There might be some temporary fences but I doubt they'll be in place long before the merged seniority list dictates who holds a captain position. CoJoe has some valid considerations.
He said "most captain's". But yes probably right about about recent new hires who upgraded within a month or two of joining SWG. Most new upgrades have been at Sunwing for a while and just now upgraded.
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Re: Why does anyone want to work at WestJet?

Post by Bede »

tbaylx wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 6:36 pm So you're suggesting 10year + Wetjet FO's awaiting an upgrade are unwilling to watch Swoop DEC's with 2 years seniority sit left seat, however they'll be ok with a 2 year SWG captain in the left seat?
There is a big difference between a SWG captain and a Swoop captain. The SWG captains earned their positions by legitimately joining a company and gaining seniority. The Swoop pilots knew that their position was solely contingent on them accepting a wage rate that few WJ FO's would accept.
tbaylx wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 6:36 pm There might be some temporary fences but I doubt they'll be in place long before the merged seniority list dictates who holds a captain position.
I would encourage you to read the ALPA merger policy and some merger arbitration decisions. (Not being rude & sarcastic.) No bump/flush is pretty standard.
tbaylx wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 6:36 pm CoJoe has some valid considerations.
I've read CoJoe's opinions on how he thinks this merger will work. Based on his posts, I can assure you that he knows very little about this subject.
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