FO taxiing

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MarkyMark90
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FO taxiing

Post by MarkyMark90 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:29 pm

I’ve been watching Guillaume Laffon videos on Youtube for a while and I kept noticing how Air France is letting their FOs taxi the aircraft when they are PF. From gate to gate. 777-300ER...

I wonder what is the percentage of companies in North America that allows this practice. What about in Canada?
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digits_
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by digits_ » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:59 pm

As long as they are old enough to have a driver's license, why not?
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radio
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by radio » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:00 pm

Cargo companies in the states have their fo taxi. I was jumpseating on a atlas 747 and a brand new Fo during his first flight of IOE was taxing the beast of 747. He really did good.
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FL410AV8R
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by FL410AV8R » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:17 pm

Firstly it depends on whether the aircraft is equipped with a tiller on the right side, some are, many are not.

Secondly it depends on company policy. I personally have never worked for a company which either has aircraft equipped for RHS taxi or allowed it.
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ahramin
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by ahramin » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:37 pm

It's very rare in North America, very common in Europe.

It's also Airbus SOP.
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neophyte
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by neophyte » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:43 am

Why do you think Capts get paid more?

:D :D :D
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by ahramin » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:19 pm

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goingnowherefast
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:03 pm

Some companies, if the FO is PF, they do everything from brake release to brake set.\
Other companies don't dis-allow it, but "everything is the captain's fault" and leave it up to captains discretion and the culture.
Some airplanes don't have tillers on the FO side, so that narrows it down a bit.
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squash junky
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by squash junky » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:16 am

For us it was normal. Tillers both sides
We had a joke when one of my best friends joined at age 19 who didn't have a drivers license. Some cpts didn't let him taxi :-)
He was cpt on the 744 not 15 yrs later.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by PostmasterGeneral » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:33 am

The aircraft I fly doesn’t have a tiller on the right side, but if the guy knows what he’s doing I’ll let the FO take it off on the high speed or whatever. The nosweheel steering range with the pedals alone is fairly limited, but if it’s a gradual corner I don’t see why not.
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Eric Janson
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by Eric Janson » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:56 am

I've worked for companies where this was allowed and companies where it wasn't.

Taxiing the aircraft was the most difficult part of my Command training as there was no tiller on the right side and I'd never taxied a jet before.

Captain only allowed to taxi may be an Insurance clause as well.

There's an additional issue with some docking systems calibrated for the Captain's side of the aircraft.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by confusedalot » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:02 pm

Pretty hilarious when you think about it.

Second in command can fly the plane from takeoff and landing, and somehow, driving around pavement on the ground is some sort of exceptionally skilled task that only the captain can do under certain jurisdictions. :lol:
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by ahramin » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:19 pm

It's just misguided risk management. The aircraft is most likely to be damaged during taxi so they try to reduce the risk by having the Captain do the taxiing under the theory that the Captain is less likely to miss something.

What about CAT II and III approaches? Our ops manual requires the Captain do be PF but there's no regulatory requirement. I don't know what Airbus or Boeing SOP says about it. Any company out there have the F/Os as PF?
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by Eric Janson » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:03 am

confusedalot wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:02 pm
Pretty hilarious when you think about it.

Second in command can fly the plane from takeoff and landing, and somehow, driving around pavement on the ground is some sort of exceptionally skilled task that only the captain can do under certain jurisdictions. :lol:
Not really - Captain will be held responsible if anything happens.

Assigning PF duties to the F/O is always SCD (subject Captains discretion) - I've seen SOPs that had this written down very clearly. This is something that people tend to overlook.

Most companies have restrictions on the limits for F/O.

The same for Cat II/III - Captain should be making the decision whether to land or go-around.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by Heliian » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:04 pm

so, you would never taxi until you were captain?

This makes little to no sense. You'd probably have less ground accidents if new pilots got the feel for it sooner and would be more cautious. Regardless, you have 2 people in the cockpit so use whomever is better suited with visibility or whatever. If you can hand over control mid-air, i'm sure it's not impossible on the ground.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by PostmasterGeneral » Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:01 pm

When I was an FO I remember being very busy especially on the after landing flows and stuff, and I had most ground / ramp frequencies memorized after awhile that it made my life much easier to walk and chew gum at the same time. Ever since I’ve been responsible for the tiller it’s given me a new appreciation of how important it is to have that “division of duties”. Some may scoff at the idea that taxiing is a “full time job” but when being handed complicated taxi routes (think LGA, PHX, MMX) and having an FO that just rattles it back without actually understanding what it means, it can quickly take 100% of your attention to ensure a safe arrival at the gate.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by moe » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:23 pm

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Re: FO taxiing

Post by ant_321 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:28 pm

Taxiing isn’t rocket appliances but my first time taxiing at a poorly lit, 100% snow covered airport I wish I was in the right seat with an experienced skipper rather than a brand new 250 hour wonder.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by digits_ » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:09 pm

PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:01 pm
When I was an FO I remember being very busy especially on the after landing flows and stuff, and I had most ground / ramp frequencies memorized after awhile that it made my life much easier to walk and chew gum at the same time. Ever since I’ve been responsible for the tiller it’s given me a new appreciation of how important it is to have that “division of duties”. Some may scoff at the idea that taxiing is a “full time job” but when being handed complicated taxi routes (think LGA, PHX, MMX) and having an FO that just rattles it back without actually understanding what it means, it can quickly take 100% of your attention to ensure a safe arrival at the gate.
If the taxiing is complex, then use the same multi crew principles you use while in the air. It might actually be better to have the FO at the controls while taxiing while the captain figures out the convoluted taxi clearances. Just like flying complex approaches.

If the task requires a mentally complex action, let the FO do the pysical part. Have the CPT direct, and the FO execute. No reason why the FO wouldn't be able to taxi.

If the task requires a complex physical skill that the FO might not be proficient in, then sure, take control. But don't make it the default action. Would you rather have the FO taxi for the first time under your supervision, or as a captain with 100+ people in the back?
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by Hangry » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:26 pm

digits_ wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:09 pm
PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:01 pm
When I was an FO I remember being very busy especially on the after landing flows and stuff, and I had most ground / ramp frequencies memorized after awhile that it made my life much easier to walk and chew gum at the same time. Ever since I’ve been responsible for the tiller it’s given me a new appreciation of how important it is to have that “division of duties”. Some may scoff at the idea that taxiing is a “full time job” but when being handed complicated taxi routes (think LGA, PHX, MMX) and having an FO that just rattles it back without actually understanding what it means, it can quickly take 100% of your attention to ensure a safe arrival at the gate.
If the taxiing is complex, then use the same multi crew principles you use while in the air. It might actually be better to have the FO at the controls while taxiing while the captain figures out the convoluted taxi clearances. Just like flying complex approaches.

If the task requires a mentally complex action, let the FO do the pysical part. Have the CPT direct, and the FO execute. No reason why the FO wouldn't be able to taxi.

If the task requires a complex physical skill that the FO might not be proficient in, then sure, take control. But don't make it the default action. Would you rather have the FO taxi for the first time under your supervision, or as a captain with 100+ people in the back?
What is a complex approach?
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by digits_ » Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:50 pm

That was in reference to a post that called taxiing complex. So in comparison to that, you could call single engine approaches, circling approaches at minima, certain mountain airport approaches, manual raw data DME arc or manual raw data NDB approaches (if you haven't flown those in a few years) "complex" approaches if you want.

Not that any of those should be above the skill set of the average pilot. But then again, neither is taxiing an airplane.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by Eric Janson » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:38 am

Heliian wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:04 pm
so, you would never taxi until you were captain?

This makes little to no sense. You'd probably have less ground accidents if new pilots got the feel for it sooner and would be more cautious. Regardless, you have 2 people in the cockpit so use whomever is better suited with visibility or whatever. If you can hand over control mid-air, i'm sure it's not impossible on the ground.
That's exactly what happened to me.

The aircraft I was flying as F/O had no tiller on the right hand side (737-300) so when I moved seats it was the first time taxiing.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by complexintentions » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:42 am

confusedalot wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:02 pm
Pretty hilarious when you think about it.

Second in command can fly the plane from takeoff and landing, and somehow, driving around pavement on the ground is some sort of exceptionally skilled task that only the captain can do under certain jurisdictions. :lol:
I thought about it, and concluded you are quite easily amused! :lol:

A large aircraft "driving around pavement" is a clumsy beast far more at risk than in the air, where it is primarily designed to operate. At the very least, it's exposed to completely different threats. Limited outward visibility, lack of maneuverability, small, fast-moving ground vehicles who move unpredictably, ground contamination, close obstacles, the list goes on. The machine doesn't "drive" like it "flies".

It doesn't require exceptional skill, but it does require recognition and understanding of unique threats not present in the air. Your lack of said recognition does support the case to only allow the more experienced crew to do the taxiing.

Or at least, the one who has to bear responsibility for any mistakes made in either seat. Hint: that isn't the "Second in command."
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by GRK2 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:32 am

As Complex implies...it's waaay easier to fly the damn thing than to get it to the CAT II or III holding point on Low Vis Ops, or correspondingly find your way in after that CAT III A or B landing, or to find the bloody stand at your major airport after a 12 hour plus day. I always give the sector(s) away because of that. Unless I have to for recency or Low Vis.. It's so much more fun to drive the yellow lines in any weather and not bend any tin than to thunder down a runway, rotate and pick an auto pilot to do the rest. (I haven't seen Rocky lately, he needs to drop by and remind us all that even with an AP engaged it's still flying.)
Simply put, a big number of company SOP's require, and hold the PIC responsible for the safe handling on the ground. In fact, never mind, they hold him/her responsible for ALL of it. You can work the radios...sorry!
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by digits_ » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:23 am

GRK2 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:32 am
As Complex implies...it's waaay easier to fly the damn thing than to get it to the CAT II or III holding point on Low Vis Ops, or correspondingly find your way in after that CAT III A or B landing, or to find the bloody stand at your major airport after a 12 hour plus day.
Sure, but that is no argument for why FO's can't taxi during CAVOK days.
GRK2 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:32 am
Simply put, a big number of company SOP's require, and hold the PIC responsible for the safe handling on the ground. In fact, never mind, they hold him/her responsible for ALL of it. You can work the radios...sorry!
Someone needs more instructor time to be comfortable with someone else manipulating the controls :twisted:
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