FO taxiing

[digits_]

That was in reference to a post that called taxiing complex. So in comparison to that, you could call single engine approaches, circling approaches at minima, certain mountain airport approaches, manual raw data DME arc or manual raw data NDB approaches (if you haven't flown those in a few years) "complex" approaches if you want.

Not that any of those should be above the skill set of the average pilot. But then again, neither is taxiing an airplane.

[Eric Janson]

so, you would never taxi until you were captain?

This makes little to no sense. You'd probably have less ground accidents if new pilots got the feel for it sooner and would be more cautious. Regardless, you have 2 people in the cockpit so use whomever is better suited with visibility or whatever. If you can hand over control mid-air, i'm sure it's not impossible on the ground.

That's exactly what happened to me.

The aircraft I was flying as F/O had no tiller on the right hand side (737-300) so when I moved seats it was the first time taxiing.

[complexintentions]

Pretty hilarious when you think about it.

Second in command can fly the plane from takeoff and landing, and somehow, driving around pavement on the ground is some sort of exceptionally skilled task that only the captain can do under certain jurisdictions.

I thought about it, and concluded you are quite easily amused!

A large aircraft "driving around pavement" is a clumsy beast far more at risk than in the air, where it is primarily designed to operate. At the very least, it's exposed to completely different threats. Limited outward visibility, lack of maneuverability, small, fast-moving ground vehicles who move unpredictably, ground contamination, close obstacles, the list goes on. The machine doesn't "drive" like it "flies".

It doesn't require exceptional skill, but it does require recognition and understanding of unique threats not present in the air. Your lack of said recognition does support the case to only allow the more experienced crew to do the taxiing.

Or at least, the one who has to bear responsibility for any mistakes made in either seat. Hint: that isn't the "Second in command."

[GRK2]

As Complex implies...it's waaay easier to fly the damn thing than to get it to the CAT II or III holding point on Low Vis Ops, or correspondingly find your way in after that CAT III A or B landing, or to find the bloody stand at your major airport after a 12 hour plus day. I always give the sector(s) away because of that. Unless I have to for recency or Low Vis.. It's so much more fun to drive the yellow lines in any weather and not bend any tin than to thunder down a runway, rotate and pick an auto pilot to do the rest. (I haven't seen Rocky lately, he needs to drop by and remind us all that even with an AP engaged it's still flying.)
Simply put, a big number of company SOP's require, and hold the PIC responsible for the safe handling on the ground. In fact, never mind, they hold him/her responsible for ALL of it. You can work the radios...sorry!

[digits_]

As Complex implies...it's waaay easier to fly the damn thing than to get it to the CAT II or III holding point on Low Vis Ops, or correspondingly find your way in after that CAT III A or B landing, or to find the bloody stand at your major airport after a 12 hour plus day.

Sure, but that is no argument for why FO's can't taxi during CAVOK days.

Simply put, a big number of company SOP's require, and hold the PIC responsible for the safe handling on the ground. In fact, never mind, they hold him/her responsible for ALL of it. You can work the radios...sorry!

Someone needs more instructor time to be comfortable with someone else manipulating the controls

[goingnowherefast]

When complicated decisions need to be made (weather, mechanical), I give the task of flying to the FO and allow me the freedom to look at the problem in more detail.

While taxiing, can always just stop and set the brakes, then worry about whatever is wrong. Doesn't matter who was taxiing. Once the plane is stopped, there's 2 heads able to concentrate 100%.

[GRK2]

As Complex implies...it's waaay easier to fly the damn thing than to get it to the CAT II or III holding point on Low Vis Ops, or correspondingly find your way in after that CAT III A or B landing, or to find the bloody stand at your major airport after a 12 hour plus day.

Sure, but that is no argument for why FO's can't taxi during CAVOK days.

Simply put, a big number of company SOP's require, and hold the PIC responsible for the safe handling on the ground. In fact, never mind, they hold him/her responsible for ALL of it. You can work the radios...sorry!

Someone needs more instructor time to be comfortable with someone else manipulating the controls

[GRK2]

As Complex implies...it's waaay easier to fly the damn thing than to get it to the CAT II or III holding point on Low Vis Ops, or correspondingly find your way in after that CAT III A or B landing, or to find the bloody stand at your major airport after a 12 hour plus day.

Sure, but that is no argument for why FO's can't taxi during CAVOK days.

Simply put, a big number of company SOP's require, and hold the PIC responsible for the safe handling on the ground. In fact, never mind, they hold him/her responsible for ALL of it. You can work the radios...sorry!

Someone needs more instructor time to be comfortable with someone else manipulating the controls

Actually I AM one. You wouldn't believe what I've seen when it comes to "driving" a heavy wide body on the ground. In ANY weather... So that puts an end to your CAVOK days theory. Add in the weather side and it gets even worse. So if it's my tukkas that's gonna get booted, even if you are allowed to taxi, I'll thank you to hand over control. At a reasonable speed please. Let's not even try to talk about foreign airports with complicated clearances in mangled english, or closer to home, ORD or JFK etc. F*ck up a turn or get lost and you're in for a treat! As for that last comment? HAhahahahahahahaha...there, ya happy? You got a laugh. Fantastic.

[digits_]

Sure, but that is no argument for why FO's can't taxi during CAVOK days.


Someone needs more instructor time to be comfortable with someone else manipulating the controls

Actually I AM one. You wouldn't believe what I've seen when it comes to "driving" a heavy wide body on the ground. In ANY weather... So that puts an end to your CAVOK days theory. Add in the weather side and it gets even worse. So if it's my tukkas that's gonna get booted, even if you are allowed to taxi, I'll thank you to hand over control. At a reasonable speed please. Let's not even try to talk about foreign airports with complicated clearances in mangled english, or closer to home, ORD or JFK etc. F*ck up a turn or get lost and you're in for a treat! As for that last comment? HAhahahahahahahaha...there, ya happy? You got a laugh. Fantastic.

I'm sure you've also seen FO's screw up approaches and landings in such a way that if you didn't take control the plane would have done something unsafe/illegal or get damaged? Does that mean FOs shoulddn't be allowed to fly approaches or land? Hell, it's your tukkas on the line, why let them do anything at all.

In you complex taxi example, wouldn't it be better if you were the one directing the FO to go while you are watching your charts and the taxi signs with the FO at the controls? Or would you have your FO deal with the complex part and have him direct you where to go? Or do you just do it all yourself because at one time you've had an FO who couldn't handle the taxi?

There are plenty of operators that allow their FOs by default to taxi the big jets, wthout any incidents. If you/your company can't deal with that, it is more a sign of the lack of training quality on the company's side, or the lack of ability on the captain's side. I find it highly unlikely that every FO in your company would be incapable of performing a safe taxi.

[GRK2]

Sure, but that is no argument for why FO's can't taxi during CAVOK days.


Someone needs more instructor time to be comfortable with someone else manipulating the controls

Actually I AM one. You wouldn't believe what I've seen when it comes to "driving" a heavy wide body on the ground. In ANY weather... So that puts an end to your CAVOK days theory. Add in the weather side and it gets even worse. So if it's my tukkas that's gonna get booted, even if you are allowed to taxi, I'll thank you to hand over control. At a reasonable speed please. Let's not even try to talk about foreign airports with complicated clearances in mangled english, or closer to home, ORD or JFK etc. F*ck up a turn or get lost and you're in for a treat! As for that last comment? HAhahahahahahahaha...there, ya happy? You got a laugh. Fantastic.

I'm sure you've also seen FO's screw up approaches and landings in such a way that if you didn't take control the plane would have done something unsafe/illegal or get damaged? Does that mean FOs shoulddn't be allowed to fly approaches or land? Hell, it's your tukkas on the line, why let them do anything at all.

In you complex taxi example, wouldn't it be better if you were the one directing the FO to go while you are watching your charts and the taxi signs with the FO at the controls? Or would you have your FO deal with the complex part and have him direct you where to go? Or do you just do it all yourself because at one time you've had an FO who couldn't handle the taxi?

There are plenty of operators that allow their FOs by default to taxi the big jets, wthout any incidents. If you/your company can't deal with that, it is more a sign of the lack of training quality on the company's side, or the lack of ability on the captain's side. I find it highly unlikely that every FO in your company would be incapable of performing a safe taxi.

I have seen FO's and Captains make a mess out of many simple and not so simple things. You made my point. If I have to take control then I take control. It doesn't mean we all can't learn from it. Can you do me a favour? (I'm pretty busy) Tell me who are the plenty of operators who let First Officers taxi by default? If there's no tiller on that side, then no taxi. If it's me who gets in the poop...you get it. In addition, and this should be noted, when you get that heavy jet Captain job overseas...guess how much time your FO might have?

[digits_]

In addition, and this should be noted, when you get that heavy jet Captain job overseas...guess how much time your FO might have?

About as much time as the majority of European FOs who do get to taxi. It's funny to see what people are capable of when you train them properly.

[GRK2]

In addition, and this should be noted, when you get that heavy jet Captain job overseas...guess how much time your FO might have?

About as much time as the majority of European FOs who do get to taxi. It's funny to see what people are capable of when you train them properly.

You still haven't answered my question about who lets their FO's taxi. Let's add another one: Which widebody European carriers even have tillers on the RHS? Of the various 380's, 747 variants, 330's, 340's, 777's, 787's, etc. You can bleat on and on about training if you want, it still doesn't release the PIC from the responsibility. How much time exactly does that Euro FO have anyway? Where I work we have hundreds of them who never got to taxi. Are you trying to obtuse on purpose?

[digits_]

250 hours FOs in Europe taxi at Brussels Airlines, KLM and British Airways. That was the situation 4 years ago. I doubt it has changed in those years.

If they can do it, there is no reason Canadian carriers can't do it.

[ahramin]

Easyjet

[Hangry]

250 hours FOs in Europe taxi at Brussels Airlines, KLM and British Airways. That was the situation 4 years ago. I doubt it has changed in those years.

If they can do it, there is no reason Canadian carriers can't do it.

I think someone has a bit of 3 bar syndrome. Are you really dying to taxi around?

[pualani-mapleleaf]

Airlines where FO’s taxi as SOP, if PF;

Singapore Airlines
British Airways
KLM
Jetstar
Air France
Cathay Pacific
Dragonair
Japan Airlines
All Nippon Airways
Emirates
Qatar Airways
Qantas
Air New Zealand
Easyjet
Atlas Air
Nippon Cargo

There may be/probably are more, but the above list are the ones I am 100% positive of.

Aircraft that come standard/stock delivered with tillers on both sides; B747/B777/B787/A319/320/321/330/340/350/380. Not even an option to have delivered withOUT a tiller on the right side.

[complexintentions]

*sigh*

One can play with the semantics of "SOP", but as ex-EK I can assure you that all handling of the aircraft is still at captain's discretion. In the air and on the ground.

EK isn't the greatest example though, because until recent years the experience requirements to join were very high and I had virtually no trust issues with FO's.

In Asia, it was SOP for the FO to NEVER taxi. Agree or disagree, that was the company policy.

In Europe, FO's are allowed to taxi, but the comments about "proper training" making it A-OK made me laugh. Flown with plenty of ex-RYR and the like and no, I don't let them taxi usually. There are some very sharp operators, but a whole lot more that have a greatly inflated opinion of their own ability. Since that information isn't written on one's forehead, I'm pretty leery to automatically give control. It usually becomes apparently quite quickly who can be trusted and who is all hat, no cattle.

As I said, ultimately it's the CA who has to wear the final responsibility, so if he/she doesn't feel like risking an unknown quantity then don't take it personally and do what you like once you're in the left seat.

[digits_]

*sigh*

One can play with the semantics of "SOP", but as ex-EK I can assure you that all handling of the aircraft is still at captain's discretion. In the air and on the ground.

....

As I said, ultimately it's the CA who has to wear the final responsibility, so if he/she doesn't feel like risking an unknown quantity then don't take it personally and do what you like once you're in the left seat.

Back to the 60s! Damn that multi crew stuff, don't touch the plane because the captain doesn't feel like it! Those damn youngsters and their fancy multi crew concepts, back in my day ...

[infiniteregulus]

By that logic, how do these captains trust ANYTHING the FOs do?

If you can fly the airplane, you can taxi the airplane. Then a caveat exists, which it does in all flight regimes, to allow the captain to take control (or the FO take control from the captain)
[obviously all company SOP limited - as they're the ones with the true liability]

[ahramin]

In order to put things in perspective, it's useful to read these comments while keeping in mind that most Captain positions are based on seniority.