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FO taxiing
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:29 pm
by MarkyMark90
I’ve been watching Guillaume Laffon videos on Youtube for a while and I kept noticing how Air France is letting their FOs taxi the aircraft when they are PF. From gate to gate. 777-300ER...
I wonder what is the percentage of companies in North America that allows this practice. What about in Canada?
Re: FO taxiing
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:59 pm
by digits_
As long as they are old enough to have a driver's license, why not?
Re: FO taxiing
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:00 pm
by radio
Cargo companies in the states have their fo taxi. I was jumpseating on a atlas 747 and a brand new Fo during his first flight of IOE was taxing the beast of 747. He really did good.
Re: FO taxiing
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:17 pm
by FL410AV8R
Firstly it depends on whether the aircraft is equipped with a tiller on the right side, some are, many are not.
Secondly it depends on company policy. I personally have never worked for a company which either has aircraft equipped for RHS taxi or allowed it.
Re: FO taxiing
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:37 pm
by ahramin
It's very rare in North America, very common in Europe.
It's also Airbus SOP.
Re: FO taxiing
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:43 am
by neophyte
Re: FO taxiing
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:19 pm
by ahramin
Seniority
Re: FO taxiing
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:03 pm
by goingnowherefast
Some companies, if the FO is PF, they do everything from brake release to brake set.\
Other companies don't dis-allow it, but "everything is the captain's fault" and leave it up to captains discretion and the culture.
Some airplanes don't have tillers on the FO side, so that narrows it down a bit.
Re: FO taxiing
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:16 am
by squash junky
For us it was normal. Tillers both sides
We had a joke when one of my best friends joined at age 19 who didn't have a drivers license. Some cpts didn't let him taxi
He was cpt on the 744 not 15 yrs later.
Re: FO taxiing
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:33 am
by PostmasterGeneral
The aircraft I fly doesn’t have a tiller on the right side, but if the guy knows what he’s doing I’ll let the FO take it off on the high speed or whatever. The nosweheel steering range with the pedals alone is fairly limited, but if it’s a gradual corner I don’t see why not.
Re: FO taxiing
Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:56 am
by Eric Janson
I've worked for companies where this was allowed and companies where it wasn't.
Taxiing the aircraft was the most difficult part of my Command training as there was no tiller on the right side and I'd never taxied a jet before.
Captain only allowed to taxi may be an Insurance clause as well.
There's an additional issue with some docking systems calibrated for the Captain's side of the aircraft.
Re: FO taxiing
Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:02 pm
by confusedalot
Pretty hilarious when you think about it.
Second in command can fly the plane from takeoff and landing, and somehow, driving around pavement on the ground is some sort of exceptionally skilled task that only the captain can do under certain jurisdictions.
Re: FO taxiing
Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:19 pm
by ahramin
It's just misguided risk management. The aircraft is most likely to be damaged during taxi so they try to reduce the risk by having the Captain do the taxiing under the theory that the Captain is less likely to miss something.
What about CAT II and III approaches? Our ops manual requires the Captain do be PF but there's no regulatory requirement. I don't know what Airbus or Boeing SOP says about it. Any company out there have the F/Os as PF?
Re: FO taxiing
Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:03 am
by Eric Janson
confusedalot wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:02 pm
Pretty hilarious when you think about it.
Second in command can fly the plane from takeoff and landing, and somehow, driving around pavement on the ground is some sort of exceptionally skilled task that only the captain can do under certain jurisdictions.
Not really - Captain will be held responsible if anything happens.
Assigning PF duties to the F/O is
always SCD (subject Captains discretion) - I've seen SOPs that had this written down very clearly. This is something that people tend to overlook.
Most companies have restrictions on the limits for F/O.
The same for Cat II/III - Captain should be making the decision whether to land or go-around.
Re: FO taxiing
Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:04 pm
by Heliian
so, you would never taxi until you were captain?
This makes little to no sense. You'd probably have less ground accidents if new pilots got the feel for it sooner and would be more cautious. Regardless, you have 2 people in the cockpit so use whomever is better suited with visibility or whatever. If you can hand over control mid-air, i'm sure it's not impossible on the ground.
Re: FO taxiing
Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:01 pm
by PostmasterGeneral
When I was an FO I remember being very busy especially on the after landing flows and stuff, and I had most ground / ramp frequencies memorized after awhile that it made my life much easier to walk and chew gum at the same time. Ever since I’ve been responsible for the tiller it’s given me a new appreciation of how important it is to have that “division of duties”. Some may scoff at the idea that taxiing is a “full time job” but when being handed complicated taxi routes (think LGA, PHX, MMX) and having an FO that just rattles it back without actually understanding what it means, it can quickly take 100% of your attention to ensure a safe arrival at the gate.
Re: FO taxiing
Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:23 pm
by moe
Re: FO taxiing
Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:28 pm
by ant_321
Taxiing isn’t rocket appliances but my first time taxiing at a poorly lit, 100% snow covered airport I wish I was in the right seat with an experienced skipper rather than a brand new 250 hour wonder.
Re: FO taxiing
Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:09 pm
by digits_
PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:01 pm
When I was an FO I remember being very busy especially on the after landing flows and stuff, and I had most ground / ramp frequencies memorized after awhile that it made my life much easier to walk and chew gum at the same time. Ever since I’ve been responsible for the tiller it’s given me a new appreciation of how important it is to have that “division of duties”. Some may scoff at the idea that taxiing is a “full time job” but when being handed complicated taxi routes (think LGA, PHX, MMX) and having an FO that just rattles it back without actually understanding what it means, it can quickly take 100% of your attention to ensure a safe arrival at the gate.
If the taxiing is complex, then use the same multi crew principles you use while in the air. It might actually be better to have the FO at the controls while taxiing while the captain figures out the convoluted taxi clearances. Just like flying complex approaches.
If the task requires a mentally complex action, let the FO do the pysical part. Have the CPT direct, and the FO execute. No reason why the FO wouldn't be able to taxi.
If the task requires a complex physical skill that the FO might not be proficient in, then sure, take control. But don't make it the default action. Would you rather have the FO taxi for the first time under your supervision, or as a captain with 100+ people in the back?
Re: FO taxiing
Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:26 pm
by Hangry
digits_ wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:09 pm
PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:01 pm
When I was an FO I remember being very busy especially on the after landing flows and stuff, and I had most ground / ramp frequencies memorized after awhile that it made my life much easier to walk and chew gum at the same time. Ever since I’ve been responsible for the tiller it’s given me a new appreciation of how important it is to have that “division of duties”. Some may scoff at the idea that taxiing is a “full time job” but when being handed complicated taxi routes (think LGA, PHX, MMX) and having an FO that just rattles it back without actually understanding what it means, it can quickly take 100% of your attention to ensure a safe arrival at the gate.
If the taxiing is complex, then use the same multi crew principles you use while in the air. It might actually be better to have the FO at the controls while taxiing while the captain figures out the convoluted taxi clearances. Just like flying complex approaches.
If the task requires a mentally complex action, let the FO do the pysical part. Have the CPT direct, and the FO execute. No reason why the FO wouldn't be able to taxi.
If the task requires a complex physical skill that the FO might not be proficient in, then sure, take control. But don't make it the default action. Would you rather have the FO taxi for the first time under your supervision, or as a captain with 100+ people in the back?
What is a complex approach?
