Jazz or Sunwing ?

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Diadem
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Diadem » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:32 am

rudder wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:18 am
AC pilots are the lowest paid mainline pilots in North America with by far the lowest year 1-4 non CA pay.

What are your thoughts on that?
I don't see how that's comparable in any way, considering that work isn't being shifted to whatever airline pays the least. If that were the case, though, by your reasoning AC pilots should be keeping their own wages low to win the work!
What I do see is that the lower scale at Jazz makes it more likely that people will try to move to AC as quickly as possible, regardless of the conditions, and this will help to suppress wages at AC; when you're making $40/hr, AC flat pay sounds like a dream. If Jazz pilots made what SR crews do, they'd be less inclined to leave so soon, whereas people who would previously have been content making a career at Jazz now see it as a stepping stone. If AC had a harder time finding qualified applicants, they would have to sweeten the pot. Jazz pilots have helped to degrade the entire industry with this deal.
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DH8Pilot
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by DH8Pilot » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:38 am

Diadem wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:15 am
Sky pays substantially more than Jazz, and GGN was so unreliable, with such terrible publicity, that AC was going to drop them sooner or later anyway. If the work had gone to Sky, tons of Jazz pilots would have moved over to make $8 more per hour. Jazz pilots signed on to be the lowest-paid regional pilots in the country for the next 16 years, and you think that's helping the next generation?
You have to look at the bigger picture. Jazz's contract far exceeds that of any other mainstream regional in Canada. Even if we compare first year FO at Jazz v. Sky, when you factor in per diems, benefits, pension, ESOP, etc., the total package at Jazz exceeds that of Sky. Hell, even our scheduling rules are far better. I haven't worked more than 15 days in a month in over a year. Look at the nightmare that is Sky's present scheduling situation, then consider that at Jazz all a new FO has to do is pick up 1 WDO every few months to make up the base pay difference, all while still getting most of the month off. Honestly, I don't think your argument holds.

As for GGN, everyone loves to note their unreliability, but they posted better on-time performance and flight completion numbers than both Sky and Jazz in 2017 and 2018. I'm also quite certain they were the cheapest CPA carrier, especially given how Jazz had to reduce their profit margin to zero to make this CPA deal work.
What I do see is that the lower scale at Jazz makes it more likely that people will try to move to AC as quickly as possible, regardless of the conditions, and this will help to suppress wages at AC; when you're making $40/hr, AC flat pay sounds like a dream. If Jazz pilots made what SR crews do, they'd be less inclined to leave so soon, whereas people who would previously have been content making a career at Jazz now see it as a stepping stone. If AC had a harder time finding qualified applicants, they would have to sweeten the pot. Jazz pilots have helped to degrade the entire industry with this deal.
This is purely illogical. No one is holding out on AC because of an extra $8/hr. As for pointing fingers at the Jazz pilots, well our present regional situation is precisely due to GGN and Sky, so I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make.
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Outlaw58
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Outlaw58 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:03 am

double post
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Last edited by Outlaw58 on Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Outlaw58 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:08 am

Diadem wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:32 am
rudder wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:18 am
AC pilots are the lowest paid mainline pilots in North America with by far the lowest year 1-4 non CA pay.

What are your thoughts on that?
I don't see how that's comparable in any way, considering that work isn't being shifted to whatever airline pays the least. If that were the case, though, by your reasoning AC pilots should be keeping their own wages low to win the work!
What I do see is that the lower scale at Jazz makes it more likely that people will try to move to AC as quickly as possible, regardless of the conditions, and this will help to suppress wages at AC; when you're making $40/hr, AC flat pay sounds like a dream. If Jazz pilots made what SR crews do, they'd be less inclined to leave so soon, whereas people who would previously have been content making a career at Jazz now see it as a stepping stone. If AC had a harder time finding qualified applicants, they would have to sweeten the pot. Jazz pilots have helped to degrade the entire industry with this deal.
You obviously need to do more homework cause as a Jazz FO, I do not identify with any part of your last comment.

Before I did my homework, I would not even consider ANY regional since the pay cut would be to steep. My goals were set on corporate and during that time, SR called me and got turned down 3 times before I finally decided to investigate the Regional option further. Even though SR pays more, the conditions at Jazz were that much better that I opted for it rather than the higher paying SR.

Money is NOT everything.

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bearitus
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by bearitus » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:40 am

mbav8r wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:19 am
bearitus wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:04 am
FOD_Vacuum wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:36 pm


Please stop trying to justify the disgustingly low pay at Jazz. We all know how little each pilot gets trickled into their chequing account every two weeks. The amount is insulting. And reality check: not once have I heard that a pilot was willing and happy to accept their wawcon; they put up with it and struggle financially. There’s a big difference. Unlike some pilots who have free rent in their parents basement, other actually have to try and survive off the pay.
Exactly, good post. I think 80% of the FOs myself included put up with the low pay because Jazz is the best shot to get into AC these days (especially with the new contract). Most see it as nothing but a short term financial inconvenience for better things in the future.
Apparently there is a monetary value to a shot at AC, it’s the exact amount that makes you willing to ACCEPT the “disgustingly low pay” at Jazz.
You’re a hypocrite, “I accept it because it gives me a shot at a better paying job”, who exactly is screwing over the next generation of pilots, the ones who protected what they had or the ones who take the crap pay to better their personal future? Ponder that for a bit.
Have you taken responsibility for your actions or is it still someone else’s fault for your shitty pay cheque?
It's squarely my own fault that I have a bad pay cheque and I am actively trying to improve my situation before I drown in debt. I don't think there will ever be pilot unity as everyone thinks about their own career self interests first and management knows how to exploit that to their benefit. In a perfect world we would all stay in our 703 captain jobs until the majors called or the regionals upped their FO pay.
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Diadem
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Diadem » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:49 am

You're all missing the point: SR pays $8/hr more than the new contract, which means that Jazz had plenty of room to raise wages and still be competitive for AC's flying. So to all the posters above, why didn't Jazz pilots try to negotiate for a pay scale that's the same as SR's? With the same benefits you have now, you would have all be just as happy with the lifestyle, but could make more money. Even if you took a dollar less per hour than SR to make sure you were still cost-competitive you could have gotten new Jazz pilots huge raises, and probably more money for those who are already there. And yet, you took the first offer and locked yourselves in to the lowest regional scale in the country for 16 more years, and it sounds like you'd be willing to make even less, because you like the benefits and the better chance of going to AC. Why, if you were making $10/hr less than SR before, would you accept a raise of only $2?! To make sure that you have work for a decade and a half? At that wage, no one is going to be there for that long, so this wasn't about longevity, it was about personal gains and the ability to go to AC as quickly as possible. They dangled flow in front of you, and you lunged at it like a shiny object. You accepted this garbage, and new hires will continue to accept this garbage, solely for the flow to AC, so don't try to blow smoke up our asses and tell us that this is about the good of the company and "the next generation"; it's about getting to AC as soon as possible, even if it means going into debt for years to do so.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Yycjetdriver » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:02 am

Diadem wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:49 am
You're all missing the point: SR pays $8/hr more than the new contract, which means that Jazz had plenty of room to raise wages and still be competitive for AC's flying. So to all the posters above, why didn't Jazz pilots try to negotiate for a pay scale that's the same as SR's? With the same benefits you have now, you would have all be just as happy with the lifestyle, but could make more money. Even if you took a dollar less per hour than SR to make sure you were still cost-competitive you could have gotten new Jazz pilots huge raises, and probably more money for those who are already there. And yet, you took the first offer and locked yourselves in to the lowest regional scale in the country for 16 more years, and it sounds like you'd be willing to make even less, because you like the benefits and the better chance of going to AC. Why, if you were making $10/hr less than SR before, would you accept a raise of only $2?! To make sure that you have work for a decade and a half? At that wage, no one is going to be there for that long, so this wasn't about longevity, it was about personal gains and the ability to go to AC as quickly as possible. They dangled flow in front of you, and you lunged at it like a shiny object. You accepted this garbage, and new hires will continue to accept this garbage, solely for the flow to AC, so don't try to blow smoke up our asses and tell us that this is about the good of the company and "the next generation"; it's about getting to AC as soon as possible, even if it means going into debt for years to do so.
+1, well said.
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DH8Pilot
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by DH8Pilot » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:43 am

Diadem, you're still assuming voting no would've led to further negotiations, eventually yielding an increase in pay. I have two problems with this idea.

Firstly, this CPA was contingent on us signing MOS4. AC wasn't coming back to Jazz if we voted no. With this new deal, Jazz's profit margins are now effectively zero, which signals other companies were bidding for that work too. AC could've easily turned to GGN or Sky to do that flying.

Secondly, our union walked away from the negotiating table many times before this deal was even presented to the pilot group. Do you really think no attempt was made to increase FO wages?

So if we're talking about the next generation of pilots, we have to ask what company has the best contract to work under. That is still Jazz without a doubt. So why wouldn't I vote in a way that would ensure work continued coming to us, rather than forcing a greater proportion of pilots to GGN and Sky under shittier conditions?

Also, you keep comparing first year salary to first year salary. The average Jazz pilot makes significantly more than the average Sky pilot.
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rudder
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by rudder » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:52 am

Jazz year 1-4 FO pay is too low.

AC year 1-4 non-CA pay is too low.


And to continue with a fact based discussion:


What is the SKY pilot pension arrangement?

What is the SKY pilot health/dental/disability/life arrangement? Who pays the premiums?

What is the SKY system for per diems?

What are the duty rigs in place (min day/fly duty ratio/trip ratio) at SKY?

How many days a month does a SKY pilot work for 85 hours of flight pay?

What are the overtime pay premiums for SKY pilots?

Do SKY Pilots get pay credits for DH?
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hithere
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by hithere » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:38 pm

Take a read on the Skyregional forum on this very website. It would appear that from a scheduling perspective everyone there is miserable. Jeez you’d figure the extra $8 an hour that the new hires make would negate that...
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mbav8r
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by mbav8r » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:39 pm

Re: Swoop pilot hiring.
Report Quote
Post by Diadem » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:43 pm

Air.Field wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:57 am
Swoop will get the pilots they need from those pfo'd from WS and AC, those from 703,704, those who don't give a flying F about going to AC or WS, or those looking to get time to go overseas.”
Diadem wrote:
This is pretty much where I'm in my career: too much time to want to go into the right seat at Encore, and not enough to realistically have a shot at WestJet or AC. I could stay in my current position for several more years getting marginal wage increases, I could go to Encore and make less than at Swoop, or I could go to Swoop, get upgraded in a couple of years, and be making 50% more than I'm making now. It's not as much as I would make at WestJet, but I might never get called by WestJet, and it's far more than I'll ever make in my current position. I get that pilots need to stand together if we want wages to increase across the board, but no one has ever stood up for me in this industry; no WestJet pilot has ever lobbied one of my employers to give raises, but now I'm supposed to help fight to protect their scope? It's up to me to get the most out of my career, and no one else is ever going to put my interests first.
Diadem,
You have zero credibility with me, time for you to move on.
But before you go, top Captain pay at SR is just above starting Captain pay at Jazz, over the long run a Jazz FO will make far more than an FO at SR.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Jumbo744 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:47 pm

Some folks are happy at SR, some are not. Some are happy at Jazz, some are not. Same goes for every company. If you are not happy, then leave. Do what is best for you. This is strictly business and I wouldn't give a damn about a company training me and seeing me leave 2 weeks later if I find a better job, that puts me and my family in a better position. There is no such thing as loyalty in business. Some of you say this is the reason why companies require a bond, NO IT IS NOT. If everyone had the balls and capacity to leave their jobs for the next better paying one, then you would create a competitive market for pilots where companies would have to implement strong retention programs with sign-up bonuses and yearly bonuses as well as compete between each others to offer the best working conditions.

Who are you to judge a fellow pilot that quits his new job for another one? that's none of your business.
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mbav8r
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by mbav8r » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:05 pm

As for the poster who left or is leaving after a short stay at Jazz, who could blame you. Would it have been better if you had received the offer at Sunwing before you came to Jazz, sure but that wasn’t the case.
I have long advocated for pilots to not accept the job, I also think if more pilots come and get the training and leave, that will go farther than not taking the job at all.
Two things could happen, Jazz implements a bond(not likely) or Jazz implements a retention bonus(more likely) or I guess another possibility is nothing changes and they keep running courses with pilots that may or may not stay.
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Diadem
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Diadem » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:33 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:39 pm
Re: Swoop pilot hiring.
Report Quote
Post by Diadem » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:43 pm

Air.Field wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:57 am
Swoop will get the pilots they need from those pfo'd from WS and AC, those from 703,704, those who don't give a flying F about going to AC or WS, or those looking to get time to go overseas.”
Diadem wrote:
This is pretty much where I'm in my career: too much time to want to go into the right seat at Encore, and not enough to realistically have a shot at WestJet or AC. I could stay in my current position for several more years getting marginal wage increases, I could go to Encore and make less than at Swoop, or I could go to Swoop, get upgraded in a couple of years, and be making 50% more than I'm making now. It's not as much as I would make at WestJet, but I might never get called by WestJet, and it's far more than I'll ever make in my current position. I get that pilots need to stand together if we want wages to increase across the board, but no one has ever stood up for me in this industry; no WestJet pilot has ever lobbied one of my employers to give raises, but now I'm supposed to help fight to protect their scope? It's up to me to get the most out of my career, and no one else is ever going to put my interests first.
Diadem,
You have zero credibility with me, time for you to move on.
But before you go, top Captain pay at SR is just above starting Captain pay at Jazz, over the long run a Jazz FO will make far more than an FO at SR.
I didn't realize you were the arbiter of who can post here. :roll: I lost any interest in Swoop once I saw their WAWCON, and I never went there; on the contrary, I've pretty strongly advocated against anyone taking a job there, even my FOs who would get a slight raise if they went there, because it would undermine the whole industry. I thoughtfully reconsidered my position, and decided that it might be better for me personally, but I would be supporting a regime that pays its FOs less than every other 737 operator in the country, with much worse working conditions. I'm a 705 captain who, unlike you, isn't willing to sell out everyone else just to get myself a 90% chance of going to AC. Besides, isn't it rather hypocritical of you to criticize me for that attitude when you hold the same one? I guess, reasonably, you've lost all credibility too.
As for the SR pay scale, you're simply wrong. This thread shows that the rates are pretty similar for captains until year 5: http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=118000. And no one is going to be spending the "long term" at Jazz anymore, so it doesn't matter how high the scale tops out now. It'll be a year or two at the bottom of the FO scale, a year as a captain, and then back down when they go to AC.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by dhc# » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:34 pm

Problem with retention bonuses is that they can be ended very quickly (temporary measure), whereas its a lot more difficult to take back raises, once implemented.
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Diadem
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Diadem » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:37 pm

Here's some more food for thought: SR just unionized, and is in a position to negotiate improvements in WAWCON. Jazz pilots just undermined that whole opportunity.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Jumbo744 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:13 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:05 pm
As for the poster who left or is leaving after a short stay at Jazz, who could blame you. Would it have been better if you had received the offer at Sunwing before you came to Jazz, sure but that wasn’t the case.
I have long advocated for pilots to not accept the job, I also think if more pilots come and get the training and leave, that will go farther than not taking the job at all.
Two things could happen, Jazz implements a bond(not likely) or Jazz implements a retention bonus(more likely) or I guess another possibility is nothing changes and they keep running courses with pilots that may or may not stay.
I agree 100%
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mixturerich
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by mixturerich » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:16 pm

Would you guys calm down? Everyone is going to wind up at AC anyways. That’s why people sign up for Jazz salaries, because it’s really about seniority (whether you stay at Jazz or go to AC, the more people below you, the better). This is the way the industry works until the pilot shortage reaches the very lowest experience level.

Sounds like some of you need to find a new career if you simply can’t handle the way the industry works. I guess some people didn’t do their homework before they started it.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Kaykay » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:25 pm

Diadem wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:37 pm
Here's some more food for thought: SR just unionized, and is in a position to negotiate improvements in WAWCON. Jazz pilots just undermined that whole opportunity.
This discussion is circular and unproductive. No pilot group is innocent of short changing one group to suit their own and it’s simply good business for any company to try to pay as little as possible for as much productivity as possible. To suggest otherwise is naive and idealistic. By constantly attacking each other and trying to pump your own self up like you are doing right now, you remove any chance of enacting the change you claim to desire. Chew on that a bit.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by mbav8r » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:25 pm

Diadem wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:37 pm
Here's some more food for thought: SR just unionized, and is in a position to negotiate improvements in WAWCON. Jazz pilots just undermined that whole opportunity.
Well, I guess it has come full circle for them hasn’t it.
I’ve been doing this since the very early 90s and one thing we can agree on is pilots will look after themselves, no one else.
I’m sure your 705 Captain job is setting the bar full r the rest of Canada, right?
Also, not going to AC, tied to the pension and seniority handcuffs
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by 47north » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:34 pm

Diadem wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:49 am
You're all missing the point: SR pays $8/hr more than the new contract.


I think you’re missing the point. At the end of the month, who takes home more money, per diems and pensions? I’m guessing a Jazz pilot. And before someone chimes in and says per diems aren’t compensation, they are. The per diems here are basically the max allowed under CRA guidelines. This was done in lieu of other compensation because it is not taxed. Pay me $1 and the rest in per diems and I’d be a happy man.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by ant_321 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:59 pm

Someone should probably change the title of this thread to Jazz or Sky Regional.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by goingnowherefast » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:20 pm

So pilot A takes a job at Jazz for 40k thinking "oh it will be better once I get to AC.
Pilot A is now at AC is looking at 4 year flat pay thinking "oh it will be better in 4 years when I'm off flat pay and hold bid WB FO or NB captain.
Fast forward a couple years, and Pilot A potentially sees that NB captains took a pay cut in this future recession everybody's talking about. But "oh that will be better once I hold WB captain".

I'm sure you see the trend. All of a sudden, pilot A has reached the top of the pile, all the while thinking it will eventually lead to a good pay cheque that justifies the crap pay from the past. Now we're flying the 777X for 150 grand a year in the left seat and there is no "next step. CR is a genius!

I should by AC stocks, so at least I'm making money off this rat race. :rolleyes:
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Art Garfunkel
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Art Garfunkel » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:14 am

Jazz vs Sky

A few big differences below

1. Benefits. Jazz’s benefits are way more in depth than Sky’s however you also PAY way more for it. A guy/girl in his late 20’s or early 30’s is not interested in financing the “freedom 60 plan” and pay for an old guy’s last five years. The premiums are expensive and are a fraction over at Sky. (Family coverage health/dental and LTD). You can probably save $300/mo/ $3600/yr for adequate coverage. Simply a younger company with less baggage.

2. Reassignment. Sky has improved immensely here but still needs a way to go to match Jazz. Sky however is probably on par or even better than AC.

3. Pension. Jazz’s new hire DC is better than Sky’s. Sky did some improvement 3 years ago but still needs a lot of work.

4. Pay rigs. Sky still needs to get a better daily min credit. I’m sorry but the pairing daily average of 4 hours is insulting. Huge improvement needs to be had here, otherwise not much different than Jazz, (DH credit, etc). One thing Sky has is sched or better per leg! Huge! Jazz lost this many many years ago and per leg is way way better than sched or better per day!

5. Equipment. This shouldn’t come into play but let’s be honest, it does. The E175 is half the work of the CRJ. More comfortable as well. The CRJ 900 can get 3-4K higher on most days but deviating adds time and we all get paid by the min.

6. Hotels. Jazz has better hotels and has developed a relationship with API. Sky management doesn’t care much about the crews quality of life on the road. (Probably a lower budget with API)

7. Per diems. Jazz’s per diems are second to none. Sky’s are not horrible but Jazz is above the industry.

8. Vacation. Not much different here. The awarding process at Jazz is awesome and pretty cool.

9. Schedules. I don’t know if Jazz still does manual block building, but that is/was huge!! The block builder would get to know you and cater to what your seniority and likes. Sky has been challenged here for a long long time. Failed cheap software and clueless pairing building has been an issue. The company does however recognize this and has been trying to fix for a while now.


There you have it. It will probably be all under one roof again very soon anyways. Once they figure out who is going to give Russ the big cheque.

Art
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by DanWEC » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:51 pm

Art Garfunkel wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:14 am
4. Pay rigs. Sky still needs to get a better daily min credit. I’m sorry but the pairing daily average of 4 hours is insulting. Huge improvement needs to be had here, otherwise not much different than Jazz, (DH credit, etc). One thing Sky has is sched or better per leg! Huge! Jazz lost this many many years ago and per leg is way way better than sched or better per day!
Everything you said is a great comprehensive comparison, except Sky definitely does NOT have sked or better per leg, it's only for the total of the entire pairing.
Unfortunately, that means you will get screwed if you're a good company crew and manage to shave an hour or two off 3 days of flying, or got a leg pulled and you're sitting at the airport. Then you end up in an absolute cluster on one of the flights, holding and diverting, get home 2 hours late. Guess what, it's all for free since you banked up the time savings. Not a good system and no performance incentive.

Also, the 4 hour "average" credit per day will bite you. If you happen to be on an inefficient 2 day pairing with 5 hours of flying, you get "topped up" to 8 hours. Great. However if you end up with another cluster and work a couple extra hours, the "top up" is simply reduced and you're still paid the same 8 hours. Again zero incentive to perform.

People are also put in situations contrary to the TOE, but doesn't seem to be much recourse.

Pros and cons for sure. Initial pay is good.
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