737 Max 8 Simulators

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delta1
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Re: 737 Max 8 Simulators

Post by delta1 » Fri May 31, 2019 7:35 am

"If the runaway continues:
Stabilizer trim wheel..........Grasp and hold"


Not physically possible. You will rip the skin off your hand and most likely break a few knuckles in the process.
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L39Guy
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Re: 737 Max 8 Simulators

Post by L39Guy » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:23 am

Yes, it took the 3rd pilot on the Indonesian incident flight to tell them to turn off the stab trim; they did the UAS drill immediately after takeoff without any input from the third pilot.

According to the preliminary report of the ET accident, the captain did as for 233 its with FL Change about 90 seconds after takeoff . Never happened. But, it was a UAS from the moment the aircraft took off which requires turning off all of the auto stuff and manually controlling the throttles.
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L39Guy
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Re: 737 Max 8 Simulators

Post by L39Guy » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:26 am

delta1 wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 7:35 am
"If the runaway continues:
Stabilizer trim wheel..........Grasp and hold"


Not physically possible. You will rip the skin off your hand and most likely break a few knuckles in the process.
The PNF slides his seat back and uses the bottom of his foot to stop the wheel. That’s how I was trained.
The stab trim also stops for 5 seconds after 10 seconds of MCAS burst.
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FL410AV8R
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Re: 737 Max 8 Simulators

Post by FL410AV8R » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:41 am

L39Guy wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:26 am

The PNF slides his seat back and uses the bottom of his foot to stop the wheel. That’s how I was trained.
The stab trim also stops for 5 seconds after 10 seconds of MCAS burst.
So during this maelstrom of misinformation and fighting for control of the aircraft the PNF just slides his/her seat back, away from the control column and any assistance required by the PF and places their foot on the trim wheel. Yea that is gonna happen. In 5 years of simulator instructing/training/checking I have never seen any reference to this "foot method" in any Boeing literature, official or otherwise, although I have seen some Chinese pilots demonstrate it on YouTube recently. It is very easy when planned and with no other distractions.

I think you are over-simplifying a very complex and dynamic situation with the benefit of an armchair and hindsight. MCAS still does not appear in the B737MAX FCOM anywhere but in the definitions section.

Also, a 5 second break after 10 seconds of high-speed trim is not much of a reprieve, do you realize how far out of trim the aircraft will be after 10 seconds of non-stop high-speed ND trim. Try it sometime on the ground, run the trim with the flaps up and then extend the flaps and see the difference. 10 seconds of high-speed ND trim will take the stab trim from within the normal range to well outside it, actually close to the electric trim ND limit.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: 737 Max 8 Simulators

Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:45 am

That's an interesting control method. Foot on the trim wheel. Perhaps they should use the crash axe? Giant wrecking bar? I can't understand how anybody thought that was okay to cerfity. No wonder the thing is grounded.

The next 737 generation will require a hammer to bash the yoke around because it's so hard to move too?

My sympathy to the pilots, the airplane is barely controllable in manual flight with all automation off, can't imagine an emergency...well it's not controllable in an emergency.
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laserstrike
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Re: 737 Max 8 Simulators

Post by laserstrike » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:38 am

FL410AV8R wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:41 am
L39Guy wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:26 am

The PNF slides his seat back and uses the bottom of his foot to stop the wheel. That’s how I was trained.
The stab trim also stops for 5 seconds after 10 seconds of MCAS burst.
So during this maelstrom of misinformation and fighting for control of the aircraft the PNF just slides his/her seat back, away from the control column and any assistance required by the PF and places their foot on the trim wheel. Yea that is gonna happen. In 5 years of simulator instructing/training/checking I have never seen any reference to this "foot method" in any Boeing literature, official or otherwise, although I have seen some Chinese pilots demonstrate it on YouTube recently. It is very easy when planned and with no other distractions.

I think you are over-simplifying a very complex and dynamic situation with the benefit of an armchair and hindsight. MCAS still does not appear in the B737MAX FCOM anywhere but in the definitions section.

Also, a 5 second break after 10 seconds of high-speed trim is not much of a reprieve, do you realize how far out of trim the aircraft will be after 10 seconds of non-stop high-speed ND trim. Try it sometime on the ground, run the trim with the flaps up and then extend the flaps and see the difference. 10 seconds of high-speed ND trim will take the stab trim from within the normal range to well outside it, actually close to the electric trim ND limit.
He probably just watched that YouTube video where they do that in a sim to see if it works. Doubt he's actually a 37 pilot.
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L39Guy
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Re: 737 Max 8 Simulators

Post by L39Guy » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:12 am

FL410AV8R wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:41 am
So during this maelstrom of misinformation and fighting for control of the aircraft the PNF just slides his/her seat back, away from the control column and any assistance required by the PF and places their foot on the trim wheel. Yea that is gonna happen. In 5 years of simulator instructing/training/checking I have never seen any reference to this "foot method" in any Boeing literature, official or otherwise, although I have seen some Chinese pilots demonstrate it on YouTube recently. It is very easy when planned and with no other distractions.

I think you are over-simplifying a very complex and dynamic situation with the benefit of an armchair and hindsight. MCAS still does not appear in the B737MAX FCOM anywhere but in the definitions section.

Also, a 5 second break after 10 seconds of high-speed trim is not much of a reprieve, do you realize how far out of trim the aircraft will be after 10 seconds of non-stop high-speed ND trim. Try it sometime on the ground, run the trim with the flaps up and then extend the flaps and see the difference. 10 seconds of high-speed ND trim will take the stab trim from within the normal range to well outside it, actually close to the electric trim ND limit.
I spent 16 years on the B737-200 and I recall doing the Stab Trim Runaway drill a number of times including a couple where we used the foot method because, as noted earlier, trying to stop the trim wheel with your bare hands would take a couple of layers of skin off or create a second emergency, Smoke in the Cockpit, from the burning skin.

I think the fact that MCAS was or was not in the FCOM is a bit of a red herring. An MCAS runaway exhibits the identical characteristics to a stab trim runaway. In one way it is gentler - it goes in 10 second bursts; a conventional stab trim runaway would go continuously until the screw jacks hit the stops placing the aircraft even farther out-of-trim, faster.
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L39Guy
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Re: 737 Max 8 Simulators

Post by L39Guy » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:14 am

laserstrike wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:38 am
He probably just watched that YouTube video where they do that in a sim to see if it works. Doubt he's actually a 37 pilot.
16 years, about 10,000 hours on the B737-200.
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florch
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Re: 737 Max 8 Simulators

Post by florch » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:03 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:45 am
That's an interesting control method. Foot on the trim wheel. Perhaps they should use the crash axe? Giant wrecking bar? I can't understand how anybody thought that was okay to cerfity. No wonder the thing is grounded.

The next 737 generation will require a hammer to bash the yoke around because it's so hard to move too?

My sympathy to the pilots, the airplane is barely controllable in manual flight with all automation off, can't imagine an emergency...well it's not controllable in an emergency.
This is untrue. It flies like any other Boeing without automation. Not difficult.

And while I won't let Boeing off the hook, and there a couple other holes in the swiss cheese, this isn't even a discussion if memory items are completed. But that may lead to an even bigger consumer confidence issue - flight deck standards in third world countries.
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L39Guy
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Re: 737 Max 8 Simulators

Post by L39Guy » Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:48 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:45 am
My sympathy to the pilots, the airplane is barely controllable in manual flight with all automation off, can't imagine an emergency...well it's not controllable in an emergency.
If it was “barely controllable” how did the crew of the Lion Air incident flight (the day before the accident flight on the same aircraft) manage to not only control the aircraft but fly it for an hour and a half to the original destination with manual trim? Answer: they flew the aircraft during the MCAS trim event by controlling the speed of the aircraft and hence the flight control forces required for manual trim.
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