Airline lifestyle

[goingnowherefast]

People have a bone to pick with Jazz because it used to be a career airline. Management, AC and ALPA turned it into a stepping stone company. Despite the pilot shortage, the starting pay has fallen dramatically. They used to hire experienced 703/704 captains and now it's 250hr wonders. A company that used to attract qualified applicants and pay them appropriately now just hopes to find anybody who will accept the low pay.

704 captains are making 90 grand or more. They see the pay cut to Jazz to just slowly climb up the pay scale again and in a couple years hopefully make 90 grand again. But if there's a economic downturn, they'll be stuck on 37 grand FO pay for many years with no upgrade in sight. Just not worth the gamble to most. Plus many 703/704 companies are actually home every night, not 2 or occasional 3 day pairings.

You never worked there mate, and have no idea what you're talking about.

The last contract just brought back the pay to the pre 2015 levels which is over %10 bump vs the "bscale" after year 6. So if you want to stick around as a "career" it makes way more sense now to do so.

When I was at Jazz I made over 100k my first full year as a Captain with no YOS. I did not "work my balls off" either, I did a few WDOs here and there and took advantage of thinks like the return on reserve time bank and TB2s for extending if I wanted to. On top of that I was away from home maybe 10 nights a month tops. The rest were single days or crossover days between 2/3 day pairings.

The upgrades are NON stop right now and chatting with friends still there, seems like it won't stop for a while especially if AC takes %60 of the 1000 pilots they need. If you have and ATPL and go to Jazz right now you will be a Captain in a year. The college hires can't upgrade fast enough, you may have a bunch parachute above you as they get their experience but you'll still be doing just fine. And in 5-10 years (mid 30's for most people who go there now as a career) you'll be top %40-50 of the pilot list with a good schedule and making $110-130k a year.

Then why isn't Jazz attracting lots of experienced candidates like they used to? Cause nobody with experience wants to work for 37 grand.

[Warden]

People have a bone to pick with Jazz because it used to be a career airline. Management, AC and ALPA turned it into a stepping stone company. Despite the pilot shortage, the starting pay has fallen dramatically. They used to hire experienced 703/704 captains and now it's 250hr wonders. A company that used to attract qualified applicants and pay them appropriately now just hopes to find anybody who will accept the low pay.

704 captains are making 90 grand or more. They see the pay cut to Jazz to just slowly climb up the pay scale again and in a couple years hopefully make 90 grand again. But if there's a economic downturn, they'll be stuck on 37 grand FO pay for many years with no upgrade in sight. Just not worth the gamble to most. Plus many 703/704 companies are actually home every night, not 2 or occasional 3 day pairings.

You never worked there mate, and have no idea what you're talking about.

The last contract just brought back the pay to the pre 2015 levels which is over %10 bump vs the "bscale" after year 6. So if you want to stick around as a "career" it makes way more sense now to do so.

When I was at Jazz I made over 100k my first full year as a Captain with no YOS. I did not "work my balls off" either, I did a few WDOs here and there and took advantage of thinks like the return on reserve time bank and TB2s for extending if I wanted to. On top of that I was away from home maybe 10 nights a month tops. The rest were single days or crossover days between 2/3 day pairings.

The upgrades are NON stop right now and chatting with friends still there, seems like it won't stop for a while especially if AC takes %60 of the 1000 pilots they need. If you have and ATPL and go to Jazz right now you will be a Captain in a year. The college hires can't upgrade fast enough, you may have a bunch parachute above you as they get their experience but you'll still be doing just fine. And in 5-10 years (mid 30's for most people who go there now as a career) you'll be top %40-50 of the pilot list with a good schedule and making $110-130k a year.

Then why isn't Jazz attracting lots of experienced candidates like they used to? Cause nobody with experience wants to work for 37 grand.

Well first off it's not $37k it's a hair over $40k. Small beans, I know but it's a few grand.

And it seems like they have no issues filling ground schools. Most of the new hires are all very inexperienced so in time we'll see how hard it will be for them to upgrade. Hence why my position is, if you have experience and can take a "hit" of working for $40k for a year (in reality you'd make closer to $50k + per diems) then in a year and a bit you'll be making $80k+ in the left seat as you bypass all the college hires who can't upgrade.

It seems like you don't actually read posts very well, or understand points people try to make. Instead you get aggressive and tend to try to argue everything. I never said $40k is a good salary. I am trying to explain the upside, so for people not so short sighted and are able to look forward a few years will see that in the medium to long term they will be very much better off than someone who stays at a 703/704 in the long term.

I know a lot of people with more experience than I had who felt like you do about Jazz and decided to not go. They ended up all being my FOs at Jazz before I left to AC, after they realized they needed to just take the hit and deal with it.

[speedah]

Sure 40k + per diems = 50k ish. but you get quite a lot of that taken away by deductions at Jazz. You’ll be lucky to take home 2000 a month without per diems in your first year.

[Babar350]

Are you sure it is not 40$/hr?
75 or 85 minimum credit?

[flyingcanuck]

Sure 40k + per diems = 50k ish. but you get quite a lot of that taken away by deductions at Jazz. You’ll be lucky to take home 2000 a month without per diems in your first year.

While its not much more than that, I did about 2200 a month on reserve without any per diems. Reserve sucks.

[C-GGGQ]

Wow, what other than taxes do they take. I get the same and I know my salary is less than jazz starting. Or I guess the real question is how much are the union dues?

[skypirate88]

ALPA dues are 1.95% (or close to anyways). The health plan at Jazz is very expensive. I'd wager that's it the bulk of the deductions. There is also pension and potentially ESOP deductions as well.

[Warden]

Sounds about right. It's mostly the medical deductions and pension/ESOP if you do it.

My take home at AC is only slightly lower than CA rates at Jazz, mostly due to the fact we don't pay a dime for medical and ACPA dues are a slight bit lower.

[aV1aTOr]

You know, I've asked these same questions from the get go....I had brand newborns just as my career was taking off(joined AC) I've never missed a XMAS, birthday, etc. I've known guys who missed them all.....I think its all to do with how important it is to you....I started at AC as a 320 F/O...it was a cool job for about a month...then I realized It wasn't for me at this point. I bid RP onto the 777. 9 days a month, plus 12 sick days a year, you can have a pretty nice lifestyle with that job. No, you aren't taking off and landing(big deal, I was a left seat prior on Dash 8 and did 12 per day) but you are working your profession and being a Dad/Husband. After about 4 years on the property I ended up holding the RP spot until I could hold F/O on the 777, although very Junior, the flying still has me at 10-12 days a month on Reserve....I save my sick days for desperate times.....i.e. Dec 24, Dec 25th, birthdays. no shame

The money, health benefits, retirement are worth it, just make sure you stick to your guns and do what works for you and your family. there are both types at this company, those who do what it takes and those who throw it all away. You get to decide who you will be.

I hope you're joking mate. That is a dirty move (Dec 24/25) and does not go unnoticed if pulled more than once. You do realize when you book off your flying on Christmas someone else (presumably with a family just as important as yours) gets called in to work? And don't preach seniority over a rsv guy; that's why you were assigned Xmas flying in the first place, seniority.
You picked this career, working holidays until you can hold them off on your seat is part of the gig. Contrary to your sentiment, you should most definitely feel shame for that kind of d!ck move.

[Eric Janson]

You know, I've asked these same questions from the get go....I had brand newborns just as my career was taking off(joined AC) I've never missed a XMAS, birthday, etc. I've known guys who missed them all.....I think its all to do with how important it is to you....I started at AC as a 320 F/O...it was a cool job for about a month...then I realized It wasn't for me at this point. I bid RP onto the 777. 9 days a month, plus 12 sick days a year, you can have a pretty nice lifestyle with that job. No, you aren't taking off and landing(big deal, I was a left seat prior on Dash 8 and did 12 per day) but you are working your profession and being a Dad/Husband. After about 4 years on the property I ended up holding the RP spot until I could hold F/O on the 777, although very Junior, the flying still has me at 10-12 days a month on Reserve....I save my sick days for desperate times.....i.e. Dec 24, Dec 25th, birthdays. no shame

The money, health benefits, retirement are worth it, just make sure you stick to your guns and do what works for you and your family. there are both types at this company, those who do what it takes and those who throw it all away. You get to decide who you will be.

I hope you're joking mate. That is a dirty move (Dec 24/25) and does not go unnoticed if pulled more than once. You do realize when you book off your flying on Christmas someone else (presumably with a family just as important as yours) gets called in to work? And don't preach seniority over a rsv guy; that's why you were assigned Xmas flying in the first place, seniority.
You picked this career, working holidays until you can hold them off on your seat is part of the gig. Contrary to your sentiment, you should most definitely feel shame for that kind of d!ck move.

Thanks for saying what I was thinking when I read this aV1aTOr.

Unfortunately this is part of the New Age of Narcissism we currently find ourselves in.

Been on the receiving end of this a few times - the worst was a colleague taking allowance money waiting for me at Flight Ops that I had gone to a great deal of trouble to organise for my crew ( he'd done nothing for his crew ).

When I confronted him about it he denied any responsibility and blamed the company!

I hope he's enjoying his retirement - I know I am!

There's a few at every company unfortunately.

[Fanblade]

There are hundreds of long term commuters at Air Canada. I’m one of them. Alberta to Vancouver for a couple of decades now. Staying senior on equipment is the single most important item. As a commuter it is imperative that you control your schedule. If you have to go the night before for an early start you lost a day off. Get in too late to get home on the last day and you lost another day.

To illustrate. A senior 320 FO could work 12-14 days and commute day of to work and home after work. He has 18-16 days off at home. A junior 320 FO will work 16 days and will get a lot of early morning starts. Let’s say he has to go the night before 4 times in a month. He has 10 days off. On the surface 10 days might sound okay. But in reality you will be home only 2 days a week and will feel like a grind.

The key is get senior and stay there. This means delaying upgrades which means delayed pay increases. But commuting junior is even more expensive because of the divorce.

Things that don’t work long term but are survivable short term.

- multiple time zones. YVR-YYZ.
- two leg commutes
- juniority

As an added note. None of this applies to socialized bidding systems such as WJ, Encore or Rouge. In a socialized system seniority doesn’t exist. As such you will never be able to control your schedule to the point at which I am referring