Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Discuss topics relating to airlines.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

Do You Set A Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude In A Radar Controlled Enviroment?

Yes
44
44%
No
57
56%
 
Total votes: 101

User avatar
mantogasrsrwy
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 315
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 9:07 pm
Location: The good side of the tracks

Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by mantogasrsrwy »

You know you are going to have to change it 30 seconds into the go around when ATC tells you different.
---------- ADS -----------
 
nightbird
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 202
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:47 pm

Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by nightbird »

The guidance we have in our ops manual is to correct it only in non radar environments
---------- ADS -----------
 
nightbird
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 202
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:47 pm

Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by nightbird »

The guidance we have in our ops manual is to correct it only in non radar environments
---------- ADS -----------
 
doiwannabeapilot
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:46 pm

Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by doiwannabeapilot »

make sure you also advise ATC you have added 10' to your minimums.
Its critical !!!!!!
---------- ADS -----------
 
ctmorawetz
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:42 pm

Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by ctmorawetz »

Our SOPs have us set a corrected Missed Approach altitude, and then adjust it if and when given a different altitude by ATC.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Keep your stick on the ice - Red Green
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5930
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by digits_ »

doiwannabeapilot wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:00 am make sure you also advise ATC you have added 10' to your minimums.
Its critical !!!!!!
The topic is about missed approach altitudes, not minima. In mountainous terrain that can easily be a few hundred feet.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
ant_321
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 849
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:43 pm

Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by ant_321 »

I’ve always found the not correcting the missed approach altitude interesting. Everyone goes on and on about it being radar vs non radar but nobody has ever been able to show me where it is written that you don’t need to correct it if you are in a radar environment. I’ve flown into airports with radar in really cold temps where not adding a correction would have had you pretty low to be bombing around in IMC.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
TheSocialChameleon
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:49 pm

Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by TheSocialChameleon »

Temp comp is the safest course of action. All IFR altitudes during the approach FAF, MDA, and Missed Approach Altitude is to be corrected. As you fly from warm to cold air, your altimeter reads too high—you are lower than your altimeter indicates.

The only time you don't temp comp is when flying on a radar vectoring altitude assigned by ATC. You must fly the altitude accepted in the clearance.

During a GoAround I would fly the temp comped altitude and advice ATC when able. From there ATC may issue a different altitude.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Hate me or Like me. Both days I get paid.
young grasshopper
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:47 am

Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by young grasshopper »

It is an ATC assigned altitude in a radar controlled environment. If one were to cold weather correct a MA altitude, should we start cold weather correcting a SID altitude as well (rhetorical)?
---------- ADS -----------
 
YG
ant_321
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 849
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:43 pm

Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by ant_321 »

young grasshopper wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:08 pm It is an ATC assigned altitude in a radar controlled environment. If one were to cold weather correct a MA altitude, should we start cold weather correcting a SID altitude as well (rhetorical)?
That’s fine to say but where is that written? How is it an ATC assigned altitude if they don’t say anything?
---------- ADS -----------
 
losercruiser
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:50 pm

Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by losercruiser »

If it's above MSA I don't correct. If I'm going missed in Terrace I'm probably going to correct. It's also not towered.

If I'm going missed in YUL and it's -20° I'm flying the published.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Donald
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2368
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:34 am
Location: Canada

Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by Donald »

Why rely on an aviation forum?

Go to RAC 9.17.1:
With respect to altitude corrections, the following procedures apply:
1. IFR assigned altitudes may be either accepted or refused. Refusal in this case is based upon the pilot’s assessment of temperature effect on obstacle clearance.
2. IFR assigned altitudes accepted by a pilot should not be adjusted to compensate for cold temperatures, i.e. if a pilot accepts “maintain 3 000”, an altitude correction should not be applied to 3 000 ft.
3. Radar vectoring altitudes assigned by ATC are temperature compensated and require no corrective action by pilots.
4. When altitude corrections are applied to a published FAF crossing altitude, procedure turn or missed approach altitude, pilots should advise ATC how much of a correction is to be applied.
---------- ADS -----------
 
AuxBatOn
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3283
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by AuxBatOn »

In mountainous terrain, temp correct the MSA. If the temperature corrected MSA is higher than the Missed Approach Altitude, use the corrected MSA and advise ATC. In non-mountainous terrain, you don’t have to correct it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Going for the deck at corner
co-joe
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4562
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME

Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by co-joe »

To me, the reason to correct the MAP alt is for comm failure. In any radar controlled airspace you're never going to get the publish missed. If you call in the missed, they will give you an altitude, but if your radios shit the bed at that precise instant, you need to CYA, (and the A's of the people behind you). Why would you not calculate it? Laziness?
---------- ADS -----------
 
AuxBatOn
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3283
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by AuxBatOn »

co-joe wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:02 am To me, the reason to correct the MAP alt is for comm failure. In any radar controlled airspace you're never going to get the publish missed. If you call in the missed, they will give you an altitude, but if your radios shit the bed at that precise instant, you need to CYA, (and the A's of the people behind you). Why would you not calculate it? Laziness?
In non-mountainous regions, you don’t have to correct anything above altitudes inside the FAF so why would you have to correct that? If you are worried about obstacle clearance in mountainous regions, if the corrected MSA is below the Missed Approach Altitude, why would you correct? You know you are safe.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Going for the deck at corner
ant_321
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 849
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:43 pm

Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by ant_321 »

AuxBatOn wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:56 am
co-joe wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:02 am To me, the reason to correct the MAP alt is for comm failure. In any radar controlled airspace you're never going to get the publish missed. If you call in the missed, they will give you an altitude, but if your radios shit the bed at that precise instant, you need to CYA, (and the A's of the people behind you). Why would you not calculate it? Laziness?
In non-mountainous regions, you don’t have to correct anything above altitudes inside the FAF so why would you have to correct that? If you are worried about obstacle clearance in mountainous regions, if the corrected MSA is below the Missed Approach Altitude, why would you correct? You know you are safe.
Where is that written?
---------- ADS -----------
 
losercruiser
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:50 pm

Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by losercruiser »

It's called logic and airmanship
---------- ADS -----------
 
AuxBatOn
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3283
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by AuxBatOn »

The civilian rules are pretty vague. It only states that in conditions of “extreme” cold temperature, all altitudes should be corrected. What about in not “extreme” cold temperature but below 0? Where is the transition to “extreme”?

The military rules are more definitive. Read page 183 of the GPH204A. https://documents.theblackvault.com/doc ... Canada.pdf.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Going for the deck at corner
ant_321
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 849
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:43 pm

Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by ant_321 »

AuxBatOn wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:36 pm The civilian rules are pretty vague. It only states that in conditions of “extreme” cold temperature, all altitudes should be corrected. What about in not “extreme” cold temperature but below 0? Where is the transition to “extreme”?

The military rules are more definitive. Read page 183 of the GPH204A. https://documents.theblackvault.com/doc ... Canada.pdf.
Interesting. Now why can’t TC just copy and paste that page and put it in a manual somewhere?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Ironman2909
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:24 am

Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by Ironman2909 »

ant_321 wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:06 pm
AuxBatOn wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:36 pm The civilian rules are pretty vague. It only states that in conditions of “extreme” cold temperature, all altitudes should be corrected. What about in not “extreme” cold temperature but below 0? Where is the transition to “extreme”?

The military rules are more definitive. Read page 183 of the GPH204A. https://documents.theblackvault.com/doc ... Canada.pdf.
Interesting. Now why can’t TC just copy and paste that page and put it in a manual somewhere?
Always asked myself the same question! In the RCAF, it was simple..... you follow the rules in the GPH204 and they make sense! When I came to AC and asked a checker what they ment by temp correcting the minimums when OAT is at or below 0C on approach plate..... because I couldn't find a clear and simple answer in any civilian rules not even the AIM! The reply was "you correct the whole plate". I think he saw in my face the " You gotta be joking..right? ". I must say that he looked puzzled when I showed him what we were doing in the Air Force.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Airline Industry Comments”