derateNO wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:02 pm
...Ever have to deal with dead boots on arrival into YVR with moderate to severe icing? Let me tell you it's not ideal.
I want to hear more about your story. We're they dead before you chose to leave the ground (MEL'd) or once you tried to clear the ice?
An outer section didn't inflate fully. Didn't manifest until there was ice on the boots and it didn't have the strength to inflate and shed the ice. Ended up landing without an issue, but it was still a bit nerve raking.
Always unfortunate finding out when you need it most, that something is unserviceable. Glad you made it out without incident.
When I see people post about Jazz being unable to upgrade pilots, or postings in the careers section looking for crew members at 250hrs, when those spots wouldn't go to people with less than 1500hrs 5 years ago, I remark at how the industry has changed.
I want to hear more about your story. We're they dead before you chose to leave the ground (MEL'd) or once you tried to clear the ice?
An outer section didn't inflate fully. Didn't manifest until there was ice on the boots and it didn't have the strength to inflate and shed the ice. Ended up landing without an issue, but it was still a bit nerve raking.
Always unfortunate finding out when you need it most, that something is unserviceable. Glad you made it out without incident.
When I see people post about Jazz being unable to upgrade pilots, or postings in the careers section looking for crew members at 250hrs, when those spots wouldn't go to people with less than 1500hrs 5 years ago, I remark at how the industry has changed.
Yeah, I agree. Thankfully I did a bit of time in broken 703 planes so I just reverted to my training...
Things really have changed. 5 years ago you needed 2000-3000 hours to fly a Navajo. Now we have two FO's sitting at the pointy end of a 767 flying over the North Atlantic with the same.
Give you a example, EVA airline in Taiwan train their 250 hrs pilots for a year on ground and in the sim before putting them in the right seat of 320 or 777. During this year, 1/3 of people get fired for not making the cut. They have been doing this for almost 30 years, and EVA is one of the safest airline in the world.
It all come down to how company does their training to a group of lower experience pilots. It can be done, we just need to change our training procedure
Remove flat pay and the WB FO positions go filled tomorrow. People who don't really have the experience to jump to NB CA but are doing it anyways because of the pay won't need to if they make a proper wage as an NB FO.
Experienced new hire CA's from overseas and WJ/SW etc. would then filter into those NB CA positions.
Over time the Jr new hire positions would then revert back to what they should be. NB FO and WB RP.
I truly believe that the number of flight hours a pilot has, only accounts for a very small portion of what makes a good Captain or FO.
I have seen pilots with 250 hours who were very sharp. They had the right attitude. They were humble. They were always thinking ahead. They showed up early. They always wanted to stay one step ahead of the airplane and operation. They knew when to ask questions, and they knew when to say “no.” Some of the best FO’s I have ever had were around the 200-300 hr mark and straight out of college, meanwhile the 1000-2000 hours FOs that flew pipeline, or instructed, were absolute GARBAGE. I am not saying that all 200 hours pilots are good, but what I am saying is that not all 5000 pilots are great either.
I have seen pilots with thousands of hours that shouldn’t be anywhere near the front end of an airplane. I witnessed someone with 8000 hours fail a 705 Left seat PPC. They would have failed a lot sooner if it wasn’t for the coaching that the 2000 FO sitting in the right seat was giving. Based on what I saw, I wouldn’t trust that 8000 hour pilot with the left seat of a Navajo.
I am sure we have all seen someone with 5000 hours plus who shouldn’t be at the front end of a pointy thing with wings.
There are some pilots that I have met with 500 hours who I would trust in the left seat of Q400 at 500 hours. Would they be as efficient as someone with more experience... Probably not, but they are smart enough to know they need to take it slow. They know they always need to give themselves a way out if things were to get hairy. They wouldn’t be afraid to ask questions, even if it meant picking up the phone and calling a colleague or supervisor during a stop.
There are a lot of pilots who I have met that I wouldn’t trust in the left seat of a king air with 5000 hours.
I have seen pilots with 200 hours that were garbage. I have seen pilots with 5000 hours that were garbage. I have also seen great 200 hour pilots and great 5000 hour pilots.
It all about attitude. If you don’t know, or you are in unfamiliar territory, remember to always leave yourself a way out.
Remember that FO that crashed the Atlas Air cargo aircraft in the US, and his horrendous record? I think he had over 5000 hours. Hours mean very little in the equation.
In 1982, everybody KNEW you needed 8000 hours to be a Navajo Captain.
In 1998, everybody KNEW you needed 5000 hours to be a King Air Captain.
In 2005, everybody knew you needed 3000 hours to get an interview with Jazz and it took 20 years to be a Captain.
Just imagine what we will know tomorrow...
Dronepiper wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:40 pm
I truly believe that the number of flight hours a pilot has, only accounts for a very small portion of what makes a good Captain or FO.
I have seen pilots with 250 hours who were very sharp. They had the right attitude. They were humble. They were always thinking ahead. They showed up early. They always wanted to stay one step ahead of the airplane and operation. They knew when to ask questions, and they knew when to say “no.” Some of the best FO’s I have ever had were around the 200-300 hr mark and straight out of college, meanwhile the 1000-2000 hours FOs that flew pipeline, or instructed, were absolute GARBAGE. I am not saying that all 200 hours pilots are good, but what I am saying is that not all 5000 pilots are great either.
I have seen pilots with thousands of hours that shouldn’t be anywhere near the front end of an airplane. I witnessed someone with 8000 hours fail a 705 Left seat PPC. They would have failed a lot sooner if it wasn’t for the coaching that the 2000 FO sitting in the right seat was giving. Based on what I saw, I wouldn’t trust that 8000 hour pilot with the left seat of a Navajo.
I am sure we have all seen someone with 5000 hours plus who shouldn’t be at the front end of a pointy thing with wings.
There are some pilots that I have met with 500 hours who I would trust in the left seat of Q400 at 500 hours. Would they be as efficient as someone with more experience... Probably not, but they are smart enough to know they need to take it slow. They know they always need to give themselves a way out if things were to get hairy. They wouldn’t be afraid to ask questions, even if it meant picking up the phone and calling a colleague or supervisor during a stop.
There are a lot of pilots who I have met that I wouldn’t trust in the left seat of a king air with 5000 hours.
I have seen pilots with 200 hours that were garbage. I have seen pilots with 5000 hours that were garbage. I have also seen great 200 hour pilots and great 5000 hour pilots.
It all about attitude. If you don’t know, or you are in unfamiliar territory, remember to always leave yourself a way out.
Remember that FO that crashed the Atlas Air cargo aircraft in the US, and his horrendous record? I think he had over 5000 hours. Hours mean very little in the equation.
I guess I'm in the minority here but I find that lack of experience in aviation to be a concern. the issue seem to be that we use hours to measure experience and they don't go hand in hand as we all know that hours in one type of operation don't always translate into manful experience for another. It's hard to say exactly how many hours make a pilot experienced, but the learning curve is much steeper between 250, 500,1000 and 1500 hours than it is from 10,000, 10,250, 10,500, and 11,500 hours.
All safety concerns aside (I do believe there are some serious concerns having only 1800 hours of experience in the cockpit of a 705 operation). Two regional jets take off at the same time on a cross boarder flight YYZ-JFK and JFK-YYZ. let’s compare what the folks in the front are making. Let’s start with how much a Canadian crew is making per hour as our system is right now. I’ll just guess at $43/h in the right and $83/h in the left, $126/h between them for about 2000 hours of experience.
I’ll pick Envoy to represent the American regional as it’s the feeder to one of their national carriers. The FO in an EMB 140 is making $50/h + (the signing bonus of 18k at year 1) works out to $70/h. The Left seat gets $77/h. I don’t know how the bonuses work so I’ll just say $147 between them for about 3500 hours of experience. The big factor is it’s in USD.
So you now have a crew making about $65/h LESS then their American counterparts. Sure you can talk about cost of living and such but looking at it from a businesses perspective rather then a employee’s. Most other costs are the same regardless of where the aircraft is based.
Each plane needs about 7 crews, I’ll calculate it at 50k/crew a year cheaper for the Canadian company. That’s $350,000 cheaper to operate EACH airplane. Jazz has a fleet of about 100 aircraft. $35 million per year isn’t chump change. I wonder if an airline could lobby the government make sure we never see a 1500hour rule here.
What if Mr. Trump catches wind of this? Maybe he will sign a bill that says if you want to land in or fly over the USA in an airliner you need a airline license. What harm would that cause him?
Finally. Someone addresses the far more interesting comparison between now and 10, 20, 30 years ago. "Now you can get a crappy-paying airline job with hardly any hours!! Win!"
Who cares how easy it is to get a job when the job pays far less in adjusted dollars?
Anyone care to run the numbers for what tax rates and residential housing costs were 10, 20, 30 years ago?
Lack of experience is the least of anyone's worries.
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I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
complexintentions wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:12 am"Now you can get a crappy-paying airline job with hardly any hours!! Win!"
why is that? I guess that's a two part question
1. Why are pilots settling for such crappy pay?
2. Why is the pay so low that only low time pilots are interested?
Is there anything the airlines could do to ensure a steady stream of EXPERIENCED pilots, instead of 250hr wonders?
complexintentions wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:12 am"Now you can get a crappy-paying airline job with hardly any hours!! Win!"
why is that? I guess that's a two part question
1. Why are pilots settling for such crappy pay?
2. Why is the pay so low that only low time pilots are interested?
Is there anything the airlines could do to ensure a steady stream of EXPERIENCED pilots, instead of 250hr wonders?
Yes, literally the only thing 90% care about is take home pay. Airlines would have to pay more, that's the solution really imo
derateNO wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:22 pm
It's a money problem plain and simple.
No, its a systemic problem brought on by the concept of seniority numbers.
If an airline could hire qualified people and put them directly into the seat they are qualified for, rather than 'bottom of the list', there would be a flood of experience coming home from overseas.
But the bottom line is, airline management loves the seniority system because that seniority number is the golden handcuffs that prevent folks from moving on to greener pastures, the only way into a greener pasture is the long slow climb thru another seniority list.
derateNO wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:22 pm
It's a money problem plain and simple.
No, its a systemic problem brought on by the concept of seniority numbers.
If an airline could hire qualified people and put them directly into the seat they are qualified for, rather than 'bottom of the list', there would be a flood of experience coming home from overseas.
But the bottom line is, airline management loves the seniority system because that seniority number is the golden handcuffs that prevent folks from moving on to greener pastures, the only way into a greener pasture is the long slow climb thru another seniority list.
I think it's a combination of both. If the difference in pay between bottom of list and top of list would be 20% for example, people wouldn't mind as much to be bottom of the list. But the difference at most companies is much bigger, especially at AC.
Some pay scales out there have lost all touch with reality. In an ideal world, your pay is an indicator as to the value you bring to a company. That means your pay increases most in the first few years at the company, not in the last. Somehow at airlines it seems to have evolved into a "dangle the carrot" strategy.
You could link lifestyle to seniority, and pay to experience. That could create a nice balance that might attract experienced people, yet convince people to stay for the lifestyle.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
98 Corolla wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:43 am
No I worked a 705 job where I did my own flight planning, created and filed my own flight plans, did my own weather briefing, calculated my own fuel, and ordered it, and it just felt like something I did sipping coffee in the morning before I started work.
I didn't know that pilots who are flying 705 could do their own flight planning?...
derateNO wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:16 pm
Also, keep in mind all we're really talking about right now is 705.
Where a real problem is also starting to show is at the 703 level. When I first started flying you needed at a MINIMUM, 1000 hours to sit right seat in a Navajo. And that was already low considering the years before you need thousands more. Do I think you need 3000 hours to do that or even 3000 hours to be a Captain at 703? No, I don't... but the experience levels are dropping so quickly past the level I feel is "comfortable." If all 703 operators stood behind their pilots decisions then it woulnd't be as much of a concern, but we all know that's not the case and the pressure is immense to fly in weather you shouldn't be in and fly overweight. A 21 year old pimply Confed grad with no real life experience doesn't know HOW to say no.
NOW, we have 500 hour pilots flying around Northern Manitoba and Ontario in the left seat of single IFR multi engine pistons. Flying a King Air or Navajo is where you really learn what real icing is like, how to deal with shitty performance on take off our of some dump reserve, not a Q400 with GOBS of power.
I think we'll see more incidences at the 703 level as well.
The standard for the operation of an aeroplane with passengers on board in IFR flight without a second-in-command is;
a. the pilot will have a minimum of 1000 hours of flight time, which will include, if the type to be flown is multi-engine, 100 hours on multi-engine aeroplanes,
digits_ wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:03 pmSome pay scales out there have lost all touch with reality. In an ideal world, your pay is an indicator as to the value you bring to a company.
That means your pay increases most in the first few years at the company, not in the last.
I think your pay does rise the steepest in the first years at most airlines.
I think formula pay absolutely is designed to represent and pay for the value you bring the company. weight/speed/responsibility
Or perhaps I should say relative value. Unfortunately, pilots in this country, even the new hires on the fast track, no longer are being paid for the value we bring.
derateNO wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:02 pm
The challenging part of being in the left seat of a 705 machine has really nothing to do with basic control of the aircraft. Anyone who's done the job would know that. When things get really fun is middle of winter, 6 legs, dealing with deicing, take off alternates, actual alternates, CRFI into fun places like Ft st John, .
aka: flight planning.
No.
This is shit I'm dealing with WHILE flying the plane, dofus.
Do you just trust the dispatcher and assume what they thought the weather would be, is what it is?
I can't even tell you the amount of times the weather at my planned alternate changed. And now I have to find one that works, and manage fuel. And all while flying a 30 minute leg where I'm also running landing numbers, watching the weather at the destination as it begins to fall and making sure my 500 hour FO doesn't do anything stupid.
You really need to take a break from pretending you know anything about flying a plane bigger than a Cessna.
I’ve been at Jazz for 20 years and I’ve never had to worry about the weather at my planned alternate. My dispatcher is sending me info on a new alternate and fuel requirements before I even know it’s changing. And if I’m watching weather at my destination change I know my dispatcher is watching just as close and dispatch in conjunction with other people in the room are making plans for if we miss.
derateNO wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:22 pm
It's a money problem plain and simple.
No, its a systemic problem brought on by the concept of seniority numbers.
If an airline could hire qualified people and put them directly into the seat they are qualified for, rather than 'bottom of the list', there would be a flood of experience coming home from overseas.
But the bottom line is, airline management loves the seniority system because that seniority number is the golden handcuffs that prevent folks from moving on to greener pastures, the only way into a greener pasture is the long slow climb thru another seniority list.
Pay is generally with years of service. Seniority is relative to the other pilots in the same position. Similar, but unrelated concepts.
The best way to improve the system would be to have a fromula that rewards loyalty and experience. A pay bump with every 500hrs on type/similar type along with a YOS bump. YOS bump would then really only need to be to be CPI/inflation increase. The "hours on type" bump would reward experience and benefit direct hire candidates and internal upgraded candidates.
