Show me anywhere it was a written order for Canadians to come home.Gilles Hudicourt wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:30 am
The PM of Canada and some Premiers were telling people in Canada to stop travelling and telling those overseas to come home. It was an order from the Government in a moment of national crisis. But who made this possible ?
The airlines. At their expense. That is my point.
Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
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Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
Last edited by rookiepilot on Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
iflyforpie
I doubt I could have come up with any strong rebuttal to your commentary.
What I will say, is this. There are very good reasons as to why the state of the airlines is what it is. The consumer doesn’t want to pay the legitimate cost of an airfare. So, you give them what they want. Lower fares to be competitive. Pure and simple.
You want less, you get less. You want more, you pay more. A rather simple and straightforward concept you’d think.
This is why, as you’ve accurately observed, “These same airlines are the ones that nickel and dime you for everything. Want a checked bag? It will cost you. Want to select your seat? It will cost you. Want to change your booking? It will cost you. Want a meal? It will cost you. Want to collect points? It will cost you. Want a refundable fare? It will cost you. Want a “premium” economy seat that’s the same as a regular economy seat ten years ago? It will cost you.”
Overbooking isn’t an evil deed created by the airlines. Overbooking was the result of double and triple bookings made by passengers. When the numbers of no-shows reached a certain point the carriers acted in self defence and took the overbooking into its own hands. Overbooking became a standard practice, at least initially, by 10%. Passenger behaviour created it.
We have a choice here. Neither one ideal. Success or failure of the entire Canadian airline industry. Which will also have a devastating effect on the aviation industry as a whole. Either preference will cost billions.
Imagine a world that might have once existed. A world where you could fly between Vancouver and Toronto cheaply, no frills, in 5 hours or less, instead of driving or taking the bus or train. Those will soon be the days, if we don't soon choose our poison.
Gino Under
I doubt I could have come up with any strong rebuttal to your commentary.
What I will say, is this. There are very good reasons as to why the state of the airlines is what it is. The consumer doesn’t want to pay the legitimate cost of an airfare. So, you give them what they want. Lower fares to be competitive. Pure and simple.
You want less, you get less. You want more, you pay more. A rather simple and straightforward concept you’d think.
This is why, as you’ve accurately observed, “These same airlines are the ones that nickel and dime you for everything. Want a checked bag? It will cost you. Want to select your seat? It will cost you. Want to change your booking? It will cost you. Want a meal? It will cost you. Want to collect points? It will cost you. Want a refundable fare? It will cost you. Want a “premium” economy seat that’s the same as a regular economy seat ten years ago? It will cost you.”
Overbooking isn’t an evil deed created by the airlines. Overbooking was the result of double and triple bookings made by passengers. When the numbers of no-shows reached a certain point the carriers acted in self defence and took the overbooking into its own hands. Overbooking became a standard practice, at least initially, by 10%. Passenger behaviour created it.
We have a choice here. Neither one ideal. Success or failure of the entire Canadian airline industry. Which will also have a devastating effect on the aviation industry as a whole. Either preference will cost billions.
Imagine a world that might have once existed. A world where you could fly between Vancouver and Toronto cheaply, no frills, in 5 hours or less, instead of driving or taking the bus or train. Those will soon be the days, if we don't soon choose our poison.
Gino Under
Last edited by Gino Under on Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:22 am, edited 13 times in total.
Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
Did any other countries do more than this? I can't recall hearing of any.Gilles Hudicourt wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:52 pmFrom January through then end of March, The Government did nothing for the Stranded passengers but tell them to come home.
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Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
In the EU any extra rescue flights were done in consultation with the respective Governments ( you can't just fly - you need various permits ).Gilles Hudicourt wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:03 pm I‘m not talking about financial aid for Surviving the Covid-19 crisis. I’m talking about the Government reimbursing the airlines for the direct cost of flying the Canadians home. What other industry paid for this ?
These flights are effectively charter flights paid for by the Government(s) - I'm not aware of any Airline doing this for free.
There were also extra flights where tickets were being sold.
Do you have any evidence that all of the above was done for free?
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Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
I'm not clear how the OP got the impression that Canadian airlines have been forced to do all this flying for free. In fact, press coverage suggests the opposite is true: https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/202 ... dians.htmlEric Janson wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:15 am Do you have any evidence that all of the above was done for free?
And as the OP undoubtedly knows, TRZ itself has charged for flights: https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/ins ... ians-home/ "When the embassy in Madrid announced Air Transat repatriation flights from Malaga, the Osmans immediately went online and snagged two seats for $4,300."
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Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
From March 15 to March 31,all flights from Canada to foreign destinations were leaving Canada virtually empty and coming back with various load factors of passengers.
Many of those passengers came back on the return portion of round trip tickets they had purchased. The prices of those tickets were based on the outbound leg being also near full. They were empty.
So a load factor under 50%. Many of the empty outbound seats had been sold, but to people who cancelled, and for whom a credit will be provided for future travel, although the outbound portion of their flight had already been flown by the airline, without the customer on board.
So the airlines will have to fly those legs a second time for the passengers who get a credit, although they paid only once.
The government paid charters were a very small minority of the flights done by the airlines between March 15 and April 1.
On March 15 alone, Air Transat sent 48 aircraft overseas to go pick people up, at under 50% occupancy. All of these were the regular scheduled flights. No government charters. At an average round trip flight time of 10 hours, that was 480 hours of flight time with under 50% occupancy. For one single day! Over 10,000 empty seats, which were already flown, for which the fuel was already burned, but for which the airline must give a credit for future flying.
Porter parked all its aircraft on March 20th. COPA, in Panama, parked all its 97 jets on March 21st. Perhaps other airlines should have done the same and let the governments take urgency measures to bring the people home.......
Many of those passengers came back on the return portion of round trip tickets they had purchased. The prices of those tickets were based on the outbound leg being also near full. They were empty.
So a load factor under 50%. Many of the empty outbound seats had been sold, but to people who cancelled, and for whom a credit will be provided for future travel, although the outbound portion of their flight had already been flown by the airline, without the customer on board.
So the airlines will have to fly those legs a second time for the passengers who get a credit, although they paid only once.
The government paid charters were a very small minority of the flights done by the airlines between March 15 and April 1.
On March 15 alone, Air Transat sent 48 aircraft overseas to go pick people up, at under 50% occupancy. All of these were the regular scheduled flights. No government charters. At an average round trip flight time of 10 hours, that was 480 hours of flight time with under 50% occupancy. For one single day! Over 10,000 empty seats, which were already flown, for which the fuel was already burned, but for which the airline must give a credit for future flying.
Porter parked all its aircraft on March 20th. COPA, in Panama, parked all its 97 jets on March 21st. Perhaps other airlines should have done the same and let the governments take urgency measures to bring the people home.......
Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
The articles you referenced mostly mentions destinations that Transat does not go to. The vast majority of Transat passengers buy round trip tickets and people mostly came home on the return portion of the tickets they had purchased. Transat in fact allowed people who had tickets on different dates to come back on the available flights with out charging them extra.YYZSaabGuy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:57 amI'm not clear how the OP got the impression that Canadian airlines have been forced to do all this flying for free. In fact, press coverage suggests the opposite is true: https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/202 ... dians.htmlEric Janson wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:15 am Do you have any evidence that all of the above was done for free?
And as the OP undoubtedly knows, TRZ itself has charged for flights: https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/ins ... ians-home/ "When the embassy in Madrid announced Air Transat repatriation flights from Malaga, the Osmans immediately went online and snagged two seats for $4,300."
A regular Montreal - Malaga ticket sells normally around 600 to 800 dollars one way. This is based on the assumption that seats will be sold in both directions. When the flight is empty in one direction because the government prohibits people from travelling on it, one cannot expect the one way to cost the same.
Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
wtf do our taxes pay for here? We subsidize nothing (look at the dairy cartel, or our 50 year old 737's because the feds think some airports are important but not enough to pave)Gilles Hudicourt wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:52 pm US Airlines received 50 Billion dollars of Federal Aid. Many other countries came to the rescue of their respective airlines.
Canada’s airlines received NOTHING although they spent Millions flying hundreds of thousands of stranded Canadians home.
Canada’s great repatriation effort of its citizens stranded overseas was entirely funded by its Airlines, which as a consequence are all cash strapped. From January through then end of March, The Government did nothing for the Stranded passengers but tell them to come home. Even Air Canada would be in dire straits today if it had been forced to reimburse all its customers whose flights were canceled. All the Government did to relieve the airlines is have the CTA issue two decisions:
1) that airlines did not have to re-imburse its customers
2) That customer could not take the airlines to court during the COVID-19 crisis
So in the meantime, it is the Canadian travelling public whose flights were cancelled who have funded the repatriation.
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Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
Imagine if for some financial crisis, Trudeau had gone on National Television and told Canadians to stop depositing their money in their bank accounts, to withdraw their balance, and to keep their cash at home, but at the same time expected the banks to keep operating as normal and on top of it, to continue providing loans to its customers......
They would have all gone under within weeks......
Banks loan out their customers’ money, and make payments with the money deposited, not with their own.........
When the government changes, without warning, the basis on which a business functions, it must intervene......
They would have all gone under within weeks......
Banks loan out their customers’ money, and make payments with the money deposited, not with their own.........
When the government changes, without warning, the basis on which a business functions, it must intervene......
Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
Well...of the two articles cited above, one notes Spain, which was most definitely an Air Transat destination. From the Toronto Star article quoted above: "Krystyna Dodds, spokesperson for Global Affairs Canada, said the government has worked out a deal with airlines ensuring flights are operated at cost." (Emphasis mine). Assuming this claim is accurate, carriers, including Transat, almost certainly included in their cost base the cost of operating an empty outbound leg: it's a legitimate cost and warrants compensation. I haven't seen any public disclosure that the feds have backed out of this commitment, but if you have, I'd be interested in seeing it posted.Gilles Hudicourt wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:08 amThe articles you referenced mostly mentions destinations that Transat does not go to. The vast majority of Transat passengers buy round trip tickets and people mostly came home on the return portion of the tickets they had purchased. Transat in fact allowed people who had tickets on different dates to come back on the available flights with out charging them extra.YYZSaabGuy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:57 amI'm not clear how the OP got the impression that Canadian airlines have been forced to do all this flying for free. In fact, press coverage suggests the opposite is true: https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/202 ... dians.htmlEric Janson wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:15 am Do you have any evidence that all of the above was done for free?
And as the OP undoubtedly knows, TRZ itself has charged for flights: https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/ins ... ians-home/ "When the embassy in Madrid announced Air Transat repatriation flights from Malaga, the Osmans immediately went online and snagged two seats for $4,300."
And sorry, but nobody gets points in the current environment for waiving the usual ticket change fees and other add-ons for airline customers desperate to get home on repatriation flights. I am in no way a Gábor Lukács fan, but nickel and diming at that level would be unreasonable, verging on unconscionable. I can't think of a quicker way to piss off a customer base and hurt an operator's long-term reputation.
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Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
Like I already wrote, the vast majority of the passengers Transat brought home, came back using the return portion of round trip tickets they had purchased before the crisis. These tickets had been priced on the assumption that the outbound flight would have been nearly full. They were empty.
Soem people say that those seat had been sold. True. But the flights occured, the fuel was burned, and the passengers who were not on those flights are beeing given credit vouchers for flights in the future which the cpm.
Only a minute proportion of the passengers bought return tickets such as the couple mentioned in the article. Snowbirds who spend the whole winter overseas generally buy one way tickets.......
Soem people say that those seat had been sold. True. But the flights occured, the fuel was burned, and the passengers who were not on those flights are beeing given credit vouchers for flights in the future which the cpm.
Only a minute proportion of the passengers bought return tickets such as the couple mentioned in the article. Snowbirds who spend the whole winter overseas generally buy one way tickets.......
Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
What other industry took large numbers of Canadians out of country? If a for-profit business has sold a particular service to a customer then it’s on them to deliver. Just because their business has been upended by world events doesn’t make the government responsible for the losses.Gilles Hudicourt wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:03 pm I‘m not talking about financial aid for Surviving the Covid-19 crisis. I’m talking about the Government reimbursing the airlines for the direct cost of flying the Canadians home. What other industry paid for this ?
If cruise ship passengers have to fly home then the cruise line should cover it. If expats choose to come back they should cover it. If dual citizens are living in their other country of citizenship they should just stay put. If airlines sold a round-trip ticket to someone then they need to deliver.
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Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
And like I already wrote, the cost of the outbound empty leg is a legitimate cost that should, on the face of it, be covered under the abovenoted program with Global Affairs Canada. Unless, as I already indicated, you have a factual basis for stating that it is not being covered.Gilles Hudicourt wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:40 am Like I already wrote, the vast majority of the passengers Transat brought home, came back using the return portion of round trip tickets they had purchased before the crisis. These tickets had been priced on the assumption that the outbound flight would have been nearly full. They were empty.
Only a minute proportion of the passengers bought return tickets such as the couple mentioned in the article. Snowbirds who spend the whole winter overseas generally buy one way tickets.......
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Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
The message is not getting across. Or you skipped some posts.
Global affairs had no role, except for a few flights. A minute portion of flights.
From about March 14 to April 1, Transat flew to all its destinations empty and came back to Canada with its customers.
On March 15 alone, TRansat did 48 repatriation flights that left Canada empty, or nearly so and came back with a big load of passengers. This went on for over 2 weeks.
The vast majority of the people who came back to Canada during that period are people who already had Transat tickets, which had been purchased when the flights were full in both directions and at prices set when that was the assumption.
Only a very small minority purchased tickets to come home. A very small minority came home on Global Affairs chartered flights.
Global affairs had no role, except for a few flights. A minute portion of flights.
From about March 14 to April 1, Transat flew to all its destinations empty and came back to Canada with its customers.
On March 15 alone, TRansat did 48 repatriation flights that left Canada empty, or nearly so and came back with a big load of passengers. This went on for over 2 weeks.
The vast majority of the people who came back to Canada during that period are people who already had Transat tickets, which had been purchased when the flights were full in both directions and at prices set when that was the assumption.
Only a very small minority purchased tickets to come home. A very small minority came home on Global Affairs chartered flights.
Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
Transat had a choice:
1) honoring the original tickets and dates
That would have resulted in near empty flights, as no new tickets were being booked for march-may
2) do what they did and what you described: allow people to change the dates on their tickets and ask everyone to fly out in the same weeks.
This resulted in empty outbound flights and fairly full return flights. It saved on near empty flights in 1)
3) cancel flights completely
That opened them up to damage claims if people holding valid tickets are stuck and need fo pay for extended hotel stays and/or other expensive last minute flights.
I am pretty confident that the accounting department analyzed these (and many more) options.
I fail to see where or how the government influenced them in which decision to make.
It is also getting more unclear what point you are trying to make or what you are trying to accomplish.
1) honoring the original tickets and dates
That would have resulted in near empty flights, as no new tickets were being booked for march-may
2) do what they did and what you described: allow people to change the dates on their tickets and ask everyone to fly out in the same weeks.
This resulted in empty outbound flights and fairly full return flights. It saved on near empty flights in 1)
3) cancel flights completely
That opened them up to damage claims if people holding valid tickets are stuck and need fo pay for extended hotel stays and/or other expensive last minute flights.
I am pretty confident that the accounting department analyzed these (and many more) options.
I fail to see where or how the government influenced them in which decision to make.
It is also getting more unclear what point you are trying to make or what you are trying to accomplish.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
That's going to come as a surprise to those Global Affairs personnel tasked with responding to inquiries from, and managing the repatriation of, the several hundred thousand to several million Canadians (depending what source you believe) who were effectively stranded offshore when the industry began to shut down.Gilles Hudicourt wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:43 pm Global affairs had no role, except for a few flights. A minute portion of flights.
Again: standing by for your link to a verifiable source that airline reimbursement for costs, as discussed above, has not happened and/or is not going to happen, and that airlines are just going to have to bear 100% of the costs themselves.
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Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
I can't believe we are having this dialogue of the deaf.......YYZSaabGuy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:19 pm
That's going to come as a surprise to those Global Affairs personnel tasked with responding to inquiries from, and managing the repatriation of, the several hundred thousand to several million Canadians (depending what source you believe) who were effectively stranded offshore when the industry began to shut down.
Between March 15 and April 1,Transat did hundreds of flights at less than 50% capacity
Global Affairs had no role in Paying for the flights or organizing them (save for a minute number of flights at the end and probably that famous B-737-200 flight to Morocco that required 4 legs each way.......
https://onemileatatime.com/canada-rescu ... t-morocco/
As for your other question, ALPA and others are working on it, but no sign of it happening yet
https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/ne ... us-package
https://www.atac.ca/web/images/Document ... arch29.pdf
https://canadianlabour.ca/canadas-union ... f-package/
NACC on the other hand has not put a statement out since March 20th, which is a very long time in this context.
https://airlinecouncil.ca/events-and-ne ... -releases/
Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
People who chose to leave the country after airlines began shutting down and things started to get serious, were stranded by their personal decision to take their trip contrary to good SA and sensible advise. The airlines operating flights during that shutting down period were obliged to provide the contracted travel there and back to those who paid the fares and decided to travel. They (those carriers) too could see the writing on the wall but dragged their feet on a decision. Besides, you don’t just snap your fingers and it all goes quiet.
Canadians living outside Canada in countries who closed their borders (i.e., Morocco) and who hadn’t purchased any airfare should still be in Morocco. Not in government paid accommodation in Montreal because they have no home here. But there you go. Repatriated.
Many who gambled and lost and are now crying the blues. Or, stuck on a cruise ship.
It’s a mess. An indictment of both airline management and the government.
Or, if you’ve got the courage to call a spade a spade, those who chose to travel when it clearly looked like the industry was shutting down are to blame for their own predicament.
Then there’s the unsanitary wet market of Wuhan if you want to get specifics. (Who eats Pangolin for crissakes?) We’ve had 3 dry runs with pandemics. 2 of which came out of China and here we go again.
What a sh*tshow?
GU
Canadians living outside Canada in countries who closed their borders (i.e., Morocco) and who hadn’t purchased any airfare should still be in Morocco. Not in government paid accommodation in Montreal because they have no home here. But there you go. Repatriated.
Many who gambled and lost and are now crying the blues. Or, stuck on a cruise ship.
It’s a mess. An indictment of both airline management and the government.
Or, if you’ve got the courage to call a spade a spade, those who chose to travel when it clearly looked like the industry was shutting down are to blame for their own predicament.
Then there’s the unsanitary wet market of Wuhan if you want to get specifics. (Who eats Pangolin for crissakes?) We’ve had 3 dry runs with pandemics. 2 of which came out of China and here we go again.
What a sh*tshow?
GU
Last edited by Gino Under on Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
There were many cases In the past where airlines evacuated their passengers at their own expense. A hurricane. An earthquake. A conflict. They were all limited in scope and time.
As recently as as Feb 2019, Transat chartered helicopters to evacuate over 100 customers that were stranded in a resort in Haiti because the road linking the resort to the airport was blocked, A few months ago, Transat used a boat to evacuate passengers stranded on Cayo del Sur, Cuba, when a crack on the runway prevented aircraft from landing there for several days.
There was that time in 2006 when Canadians were evacuated from Lebanon at government expense, in a case of war.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/na ... le1103709/
Covid-19 was a different beast.
From the moment the PM of Canada took to the airwaves to tell people to stop travelling and to come home, all the airlines flying abroad should have asked to meet the government to come up with a concerted plan of action. The rules governing the airlines no longer applied and had to be revised.
Just like they would for banks if Trudeau took to the airwaves tonight to tell us to depositing our money in banks.
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Re: Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?
Yes, and you are being deaf enough that you just are not getting the message.Gilles Hudicourt wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:50 pm I can't believe we are having this dialogue of the deaf.......
Between March 15 and April 1,Transat did hundreds of flights at less than 50% capacity
Yes, they did fly airplanes out empty. It's called 'the cost of doing business'. I'm sure the legal folks had some say in it too, advising accounting and executive types just what types of liability they may face if they just shut down and left folks stranded in destination.
Transat executives, folks WAY above your pay grade, made the choice to repatriate customers. Nobody held a gun to the head telling them they had to. They did the right thing, legally and morally, by getting folks home.
Sunwing went a step farther, and offered up empty seats for free to Canadians stranded.
This is where the cookies crumbled on this go around....