Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

[alkaseltzer]

WestJet concerned third-party charges undermining Canada's economic recovery

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/w ... 70156.html

I find it funny that WS is concerned that a 3 to 7$ hike in NavCan fees will keep passengers away. I'm more of the opinion that travel restrictions, the virus, and the fact that if I book a flight, I might not get my money back if it gets canceled, is keeping passengers away. I could be wrong though......

Where's that loud mouth, Gabor Lukacs now?

Why bring him into this? He's a passenger rights activist. Not a passenger price activist.

Lost luggage, flight delays, flight cancellations, denied boarding, etc. These are the issues he cares about, not a 3$ hike in NavCan fees.

I wouldn’t look to him to understand systemic issues in our industry ..

For example, I’m interested in what I eat, where it comes from and how it’s produced. This requires me to understand the system as a whole..and how I play into the system and contribute to the problem as a consumer.

Mr. L is doing no such self inventory... he’d be more than happy to see employees take the pay cut so joe six pack can go to Vegas that much cheaper.

No need to go all philosophical.

Mr. L doesn't give two hoots about how much a passenger pays. He simply helps the travelling public to be aware of their rights and be capable of enforcing them against airlines. There is nothing wrong with that. He doesn't care if your ticket to Vegas is 300$ or 3000$.

"VANCOUVER (NEWS 1130) – The cost of your next flight to Europe or the Caribbean could be going up if Air Canada buys low-cost carrier Air Transat, says a passenger advocate.

Gabor Lukacs says this intensifies an already concentrated market.

“I think it’s going to mean worse service and higher prices for passengers,” says Lukacs.

He wants regulators or the competition bureau to step in."

https://www.citynews1130.com/2019/06/27 ... -advocate/

Give me a break.

And it's not a $3 hike, where are you flying to??

[thenoflyzone]

"VANCOUVER (NEWS 1130) – The cost of your next flight to Europe or the Caribbean could be going up if Air Canada buys low-cost carrier Air Transat, says a passenger advocate.

Gabor Lukacs says this intensifies an already concentrated market.

“I think it’s going to mean worse service and higher prices for passengers,” says Lukacs.

He wants regulators or the competition bureau to step in."

https://www.citynews1130.com/2019/06/27 ... -advocate/

Give me a break.

And it's not a $3 hike, where are you flying to??

He's stating his opinion. That's what people do when questioned by the media. Nothing wrong with that. It's not his agenda to fight airline prices.

And the regulators and the competition bureau were always going to step in. They didn't do so because Gabor said so.

[alkaseltzer]

"VANCOUVER (NEWS 1130) – The cost of your next flight to Europe or the Caribbean could be going up if Air Canada buys low-cost carrier Air Transat, says a passenger advocate.

Gabor Lukacs says this intensifies an already concentrated market.

“I think it’s going to mean worse service and higher prices for passengers,” says Lukacs.

He wants regulators or the competition bureau to step in."

https://www.citynews1130.com/2019/06/27 ... -advocate/

Give me a break.

And it's not a $3 hike, where are you flying to??

He's stating his opinion. That's what people do when questioned by the media. Nothing wrong with that. It's not his agenda to fight airline prices.

And the regulators and the competition bureau were always going to step in. They didn't do so because Gabor said so.

I respectfully disagree with your stance. He promotes a socialist approach; bad for business, and not reflective of our capitalistic society.

Regulators haven't stepped into why NAV CANADA charges the highest fees in the world and chronically understaffed. Regulators don't care whether NAV CANADA or Air Canada are gouging the public. They just want the public's respect. They want to feel good, do they actually do good?

[thenoflyzone]

I respectfully disagree with your stance. He promotes a socialist approach; bad for business, and not reflective of our capitalistic society.

Regulators haven't stepped into why NAV CANADA charges the highest fees in the world and chronically understaffed. Regulators don't care whether NAV CANADA or Air Canada are gouging the public. They just want the public's respect. They want to feel good, do they actually do good?

Socialism? capitalism? Relax dude.

He helps passengers with broken/lost luggage, canceled flights, and refunds. No need to get all political.

As for your claim that NavCan charges the highest fees in the world, care to provide a source on that? (I hope you're not going to show me a news link about Pearson airport being the most expensive airport in the world to land at, since that is all about GTAA, not NavCan)

[alkaseltzer]

I'm sure Gabor is SO concerned about someone's luggage that broke (which they probably bought at DOLLARAMA)...it's clear his MO is to bring back remnants of the Eastern Bloc into aviation.

And I'm not going to start a tit-for-tat on Navcanada fees. I get it that you're a controller. No one is bashing you. The bureaucracy of this institution is a textbook example of how to milk the system and its users. You know it and I know it.

Can't wait for Elon Musk to actually get his Starlink system in order to actually provide ADS-B service to all aircraft, for all airlines AND THEN, we will see NAVCANADA fees come in line with the rest of the world.

[thenoflyzone]

Can't wait for Elon Musk to actually get his Starlink system in order to actually provide ADS-B service to all aircraft, for all airlines AND THEN, we will see NAVCANADA fees come in line with the rest of the world.

Elon Musk will help lower NavCan fees? lol

First, starlink is about high speed internet for all. Not ADS-B.

Second, such a LEO satellite system already exists, was operational as of last year, and guess who is a majority stakeholder.

https://aireon.com/2014/02/18/aireon-an ... providers/

[Gilles Hudicourt]

https://www.navcanada.ca/EN/Pages/NR-40-2020.aspx

This catatonic Government is in auto destruct mode.

[goingnowherefast]

But don't worry, the new NOTAM site is making things so much more efficient

[TheRealPapaK]

And I'm not going to start a tit-for-tat on Navcanada fees. I get it that you're a controller. No one is bashing you. The bureaucracy of this institution is a textbook example of how to milk the system and its users. You know it and I know it.

Can't wait for Elon Musk to actually get his Starlink system in order to actually provide ADS-B service to all aircraft, for all airlines AND THEN, we will see NAVCANADA fees come in line with the rest of the world.

The fact is you can’t prove it’s the most expensive because it’s not. The FAA has about a 30% higher cost despite the fact that it has 9 times the traffic. NAVCanada also utilized more controllers-in-seat time than the FAA. The fact that you think starlink will have ADS-B just shows how little you understand any thing.

Until this year, NAVCANADA has reduced rates since 1995. So
Over a 25 year period it got cheaper before inflation is considered. Last year airlines got $180M in refunds from NAVCAN.

[Sceptical]

NAV CANADA reducing its rates even on an inflation adjusted basis is less expensive is not an indication of NAV CANADA being efficient. One would expect that NAV CANADA would be less costly considering that at onetime it was a Federal Government responsibility - anyone can make a former government operation more efficient with their eyes closed.

The increase in air travel including flights that generate NAV CANADA fees masks the inefficiencies as well. With largely fixed costs any incremental revenue all goes to the bottom line or fee reductions. Doesn't take a business wizard to achieve that.

Take a look at the management structure and their pay (accessible via their annual reports). JC and now NW being paid north of $1M to run a monopoly? RK making almost the same. Way out of whack for what that business does. The bureaucracy is overwhelming, so much so that they had to move parts of the operation out of the Metcalf location and out to the airport.

But look at the operational level - flow control into YVR pre-COVID? You gotta be kidding me. Restrictions above FL280 due to staffing levels. Incredible. But there is more - the flight planning section is way out-of-date. A refusal to provided ground-based ADS-B that would be inter-operable with our neighbours to the south. I can go on and on.

If there is one advantage to COVID it is NAV CANADA is finally having to figure out to become efficient - unfortunately it took a crisis like this.

[alkaseltzer]

How many controllers/FSS actually got laid off? Just curious how they treat the bottom line.

[thenoflyzone]

How many controllers/FSS actually got laid off? Just curious how they treat the bottom line.

Active controllers with licenses, zero. They fired most trainees though. Don't know the FSS situation.

NAV CANADA reducing its rates even on an inflation adjusted basis is less expensive is not an indication of NAV CANADA being efficient. One would expect that NAV CANADA would be less costly considering that at onetime it was a Federal Government responsibility - anyone can make a former government operation more efficient with their eyes closed.

The increase in air travel including flights that generate NAV CANADA fees masks the inefficiencies as well. With largely fixed costs any incremental revenue all goes to the bottom line or fee reductions. Doesn't take a business wizard to achieve that.

Take a look at the management structure and their pay (accessible via their annual reports). JC and now NW being paid north of $1M to run a monopoly? RK making almost the same. Way out of whack for what that business does. The bureaucracy is overwhelming, so much so that they had to move parts of the operation out of the Metcalf location and out to the airport.

But look at the operational level - flow control into YVR pre-COVID? You gotta be kidding me. Restrictions above FL280 due to staffing levels. Incredible. But there is more - the flight planning section is way out-of-date. A refusal to provided ground-based ADS-B that would be inter-operable with our neighbours to the south. I can go on and on.

If there is one advantage to COVID it is NAV CANADA is finally having to figure out to become efficient - unfortunately it took a crisis like this.

I get your point. But name me a multi-billion dollar company nowadays who's CEO doesn't make north of $1 million.

That being said, I agree with you about too much bureaucracy. There are way too many managers at NavCan. "Too many chiefs, not enough Indians", as they say. This is also why not a single active air traffic controller got laid off, but a lot of managers did.

At the end of the day, it is the controllers that bring in the revenues for NavCan, not the managers. As for your pre-COVID flow control comments, they illustrate the fact that there were ATC staffing issues across the country. One more reason why no active controllers were laid off. And if controllers do get laid off in the future, your flow control issues will only get worse once traffic takes to the skies again, especially with no trainees in the pipeline for the foreseeable future.

[dhc#]

Canada's Regional and Community Airports Expect Massive Fee Increases and Operational Service Reductions In 2021

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/c ... 24053.html

[whipline]

I hate the term “not for profit”. If anyone would like a not for profit to become efficient it needs to be for profit. Shareholders are a fickle bunch not easily blinded by bullshit.

Fiscal responsibility or extinction. When extinction isn’t a possibility why be responsible?

[thenoflyzone]

WestJet's appeal of the revised service charges was dismissed by the CTA on January 12, 2021.

https://www.navcanada.ca/EN/Pages/NR-02-2021.aspx

In September 2020, the Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) received an appeal by WestJet of the revised customer service charges implemented on September 1, 2020, requesting, among other things, the cancellation of the revised charges. The appeal alleged that the Company did not comply with two of the charging principles in the Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization Act. On January 12, 2021, the CTA dismissed the appeal filed by WestJet and in doing so, upheld the Company's revised service charges which came into effect on September 1, 2020.

[Raincoast]

Always intersting to listen to people complain about the cost of doing things/infrastructure in Canada, yet completely discount the geographical and population realities of this country: 2nd in land mass, 38th in population