Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

[LTR123]

NavCanada is not 'terrible' or the 'worst'. They do a good job by any measure in their supporting role within the air transport industry.

However, NavCanada is a disgustingly bloated monopoly. Air traffic controllers are paid far too much and the fact that nobody from NavCanada has been laid off is a travesty.

Braun, if there is no work for people you lay them off; the very idea that its okay for this monopoly racket to raise fees at this time is ridiculous. Your managers burn money like firewood and your co-workers, like the rest of the public sector, think they deserve a free ride just because.

[photofly]

I haven’t noticed Transport Canada lay off any inspectors, all sitting at home...

Just saying.

[thenoflyzone]

NavCanada is not 'terrible' or the 'worst'. They do a good job by any measure in their supporting role within the air transport industry.

However, NavCanada is a disgustingly bloated monopoly. Air traffic controllers are paid far too much and the fact that nobody from NavCanada has been laid off is a travesty.

Braun, if there is no work for people you lay them off; the very idea that its okay for this monopoly racket to raise fees at this time is ridiculous. Your managers burn money like firewood and your co-workers, like the rest of the public sector, think they deserve a free ride just because.

Bloated? NavCan, one of the largest ANSP's in the world, both in terms of land area, and traffic volume, is bloated? What pills are you on?

When NavCan bought the air navigation service network off the hands of Transport Canada back in 1996, they had a staff of 6,000. They now have a staff less than 5,000. The number of controllers in that 24 years span has stayed the same, if not gone down, and yet we handle over twice the traffic we did back then, if not more.

Yeah, bloated is the right word alright !! You want bloated, go see the FAA or the French DSNA. Crown corporations and goverment owned agencies tend to be bloated. Not private companies.

As for our salaries, we are payed the industry average. In fact, I would argue that as little as 10 years ago, we were still well below industry average. We are now catching up. Still no match for a left seat B787 or B77W earner over at AC though, I'll tell you that much !

As for your last statement, I have never heard EVER in my flying career, of any company instructor pilot washing out an otherwise qualified new hire just so he could guarantee himself and some of his colleagues more flying overtime. Yet this went on for years at Nav Canada. I am happy to learn this is no longer the case. It was a stain on the institution.

I wasn't talking about overtime protection. That mentality is long gone, at least in my FIR and unit. I was talking about overtime, and overtime alone.

Sorry Braun, as a customer of Nav Canada I don't see it like that at all. How many Nav Canada employees lost their job or took a pay cut due to Covid?

Rhetorical question since we know the answer is "none," Nav Canada is weathering the storm quite nicely. Certainly nothing against individual Controllers, but Nav Canada provides a terrible product.

The usual slow down 300nm from Vancouver due to traffic, to revised "Star" for more spacing, to speed your discretion - to end up being the only Airplane in the sky on Approach.

As someone who fly's Internationally I can tell you first hand that this nonsense does not happen anywhere else on the Planet! Don't get me started about Calgary, fortunately I never fly there anymore.

Really now. Nowhere else on the entire planet, EVER ? Ok boss.

Tell me, when you say you fly internationally, are you by any chance one of those left seat guys on an AC B77W, who flies, what, 8 times a month, and pretends to know how ATC is handled around the world based on your vast number of landings/takeoffs abroad per month?

Give me a break !

How is LGA able to run with only 1 into wind rwy when you guys whine sooooooo much about having to switch to the north south runways?

It's called a GDP for a reason. Summertime, 2-3-4 hour holds on the ground for anything going to LGA is common practice. They limit the number of flights per hour. Hence why the smooth(ish) process once you are airborne. If you have a GDP for one the 4 majors in Canada, it's mostly because there is either IMC weather or rwy construction, which reduces the arrival rate. The GDP for LGA is 16 hours a day, every day, for the entire summer season. I work at one the 4 major towers here in Canada. I pop in to work at 6 am. Thirty minutes later, TMU sends the LGA GDP pop-up. Like clockwork. EVERY DAY during the summer.

[fishface]

Apart from YYZ, NAVCanada really isn’t that busy....
I think the point they’re trying to make was that if you gave for example an LGA controller the same airspace and the same amount of runways they could do more than a Canadian controller.
And I don’t mean that in a rude way, I think ATC is awesome and the work ATC does around the world is great.

But it’s like, going into LGA, as far south as Jacksonville you can start getting sequenced (!!!) yet into YYZ everyone is on top of each other until the last 2 sectors then its left 40 degrees for sequence reduce M.70

That’s a head scratcher.

A lot of the issues though are on the traffic management side of things and not so much the controlling - long story short: clueless

But still, ya’ll are pretty awesome overall.

[ahramin]

Well, they’ve started offering packages for people to retire. We are losing ATCO’s because of this already. Staffing was an issue and it’s going to be one again in a year or two.

What's the package being offered? Anyone taking it?

[co-joe]

...
Controller salaries in Canada are on par with international salaries ...

We’re are in this together ...

Why should you get paid the same as controllers internationally? We aren't paid anywhere near what the US or other countries pay their pilots.

Could you explain to me what "We are in this together" means to you?

I personally think NC does a great job with the tools they are given. I have zero complaints about you, your professionalism, and the level of service you give day in and day out. But to say "we're all in this together" when you still have your high paying job, and our industry is coming apart at the seams all around us, and you are defending NC kicking us while we're down? What world are we in this together in?

[Braun]

...
Controller salaries in Canada are on par with international salaries ...

We’re are in this together ...

Why should you get paid the same as controllers internationally? We aren't paid anywhere near what the US or other countries pay their pilots.

Could you explain to me what "We are in this together" means to you?

I personally think NC does a great job with the tools they are given. I have zero complaints about you, your professionalism, and the level of service you give day in and day out. But to say "we're all in this together" when you still have your high paying job, and our industry is coming apart at the seams all around us, and you are defending NC kicking us while we're down? What world are we in this together in?

My salary is negotiated by my union and why should we not be paid similar to international standards? Because pilots don’t? That’s your reason?

And yes, I believe we are in this together because no one can expect to keep their job if the industry doesn’t rebound. People will get laid off of there is not a turnaround in traffic numbers. No one here thinks they are “safe” forever.
I’m truly sorry people got laid off, I’m sorry for the uncertainty but it’s not on me or my colleagues. No one at Nav Canada thinks they are “above” the industry. We might lag behind in feeling the long term effects of this but we will, eventually.

[mbav8r]

...
Controller salaries in Canada are on par with international salaries ...

We’re are in this together ...

Why should you get paid the same as controllers internationally? We aren't paid anywhere near what the US or other countries pay their pilots.

Could you explain to me what "We are in this together" means to you?

I personally think NC does a great job with the tools they are given. I have zero complaints about you, your professionalism, and the level of service you give day in and day out. But to say "we're all in this together" when you still have your high paying job, and our industry is coming apart at the seams all around us, and you are defending NC kicking us while we're down? What world are we in this together in?

My salary is negotiated by my union and why should we not be paid similar to international standards? Because pilots don’t? That’s your reason?

And yes, I believe we are in this together because no one can expect to keep their job if the industry doesn’t rebound. People will get laid off of there is not a turnaround in traffic numbers. No one here thinks they are “safe” forever.
I’m truly sorry people got laid off, I’m sorry for the uncertainty but it’s not on me or my colleagues. No one at Nav Canada thinks they are “above” the industry. We might lag behind in feeling the long term effects of this but we will, eventually.

I think you may have lost touch with reality, your union was able to negotiate salaries on par with other ATC because you have a true monopoly, absolutely no competition for your work!
With the current lack of traffic flying around, could you safely work more sectors? I‘m willing to bet there is enough efficiency that could be found and corresponding reduction in staff, but you don’t have to because you have a monopoly and merely need to hold the line, up the fees, no member suffers.
Not for profit doesn’t mean efficient or economic, when the end result is you pass the costs on to the airlines and subsequently to the traveling public, there is no end to your gravy train.
Canadian airlines already have some of the highest fees and your answer is to up them, how about share the pain, work a little harder for your salaries, we are not in this together until a lower cost competitor comes for your work. Keep going the way you are and you may face that reality.

[ZBBYLW]

...
Controller salaries in Canada are on par with international salaries ...

We’re are in this together ...

Why should you get paid the same as controllers internationally? We aren't paid anywhere near what the US or other countries pay their pilots.

Could you explain to me what "We are in this together" means to you?

I personally think NC does a great job with the tools they are given. I have zero complaints about you, your professionalism, and the level of service you give day in and day out. But to say "we're all in this together" when you still have your high paying job, and our industry is coming apart at the seams all around us, and you are defending NC kicking us while we're down? What world are we in this together in?

Co-Joe. I am happy ATC gets paid industry standard, we should hope they get paid more. We aren't getting paid industry standard because we had extremely poor union leadership (KV) and decided to sign a $&@$& ING 10 year contract. I know hindsight is 20-20 but that was idiotic. We are also kept down by what AT and WS pays their pilots. We still significantly out earn them ML or Rouge with maybe the exception of the 767, though most 767 guys still would take home more than a WS pilot with how their GDIP and ESOP came off their pay cheques and taxes.

The flow control is annoying. On VFR days getting vectored onto a 9 mile ILS for noise abatement when number 1 is annoying. It's funny we all want planes to move faster then some of us complain when the YYZ spacing got reduced recently. How about those senior chaps taking a while getting into position for a visual take off, I bet you they would be quicker too in SFO or LGA. It takes two to tango and I think all of us are to blame. The NC Man Ops are more restrictive. We succumb to NIMBYism much more (most places in the US you can turn at 400 feet) and some of us infallible pilots line up like tortoises, miss a high speed at 30 kts and roll to the next one at idle thrust on a dry runway, accept a visual approach with guys behind them and set up for a 10 mile final, reject a side step from 24R to 24L at 4 miles out to avoid a GA etc...

I think a culture change should happen in Canada. Have guys on both sides of the mic striving for a higher performance. Recently in YYZ I've noticed a few more guys and girls start slotting traffic in tighter. It's been great to see. Hopefully we get back into the air soon and we can start using the real estate more efficiently.

[whipline]

Not for profit are some of the worst run enterprises. If navcan was treated like a business there would be massive cuts like everywhere else. If not they would be bankrupt or heading at the speed of light towards it.

Saying your fees haven’t risen in the past 15 years only means one thing. They were way to high 15 years ago and have slowly migrated back.

You can’t be laid off because of retraining and lack of staffing projected 2 years from now? Funny.

You can’t be laid off because of Canada’s immense land mass? Funny

You can’t be laid off because your an essential service? To what? Air, clouds, balloons,birds? Funny.

I fly all over the place and think Canadian ATC are great. Some sid’s and star’s are F’n useless but certainly not the controllers fault.

Good on ATC for keeping your jobs. But don’t say it like it ain’t. Your lucky there’s no shareholder accountability. You’d be out on your butts instantly.

Wait for the carnage of the not for profit airport authorities. They haven’t laid off either. Maybe thinking its to hard to retrain and very essential. Wonder if the Gtaa has turned on the AC in the terminals yet. Great cost cutting. Maybe you should give yourselves a bonus.

Love when the tail wags the dog.

[Braun]

Since this has drifted into how “entitled” I apparently am, even though it is not all the case, I’ll bring the discussion back to the original subject which is Nav Canada cost and efficiency.

This CANSO report might help clear up some misconceptions about just how “inefficient” Nav Canada is.
https://www.canso.org/system/files/Glob ... 20View.pdf

[TheStig]

Braun, thanks for your contribution to the forum and aviation safety. What is really being discussed is the ever growing rift between those who work in the private sector and the public. The gap between job security and pay has growing for a while and the COVID epidemic amplified the former. The financial strain is certainly being felt harder by some than others.

[McKinley]

Braun,

I think “ entitled” may be the wrong term.

I think the frustration is coming from wages being out of lockstep with the rest of the industry . I do happen to know some controllers and the wages ( From what I hear) are more than very generous.

When AIF’s go up and NAVCAN etc fees go up, it is usually time for the next round of contract negotiations and our ( and our colleagues ( support staff and FA’s ) wages go down correspondingly. ( this is my experience) And I think this crisis will be no different than any of the preceding ones. This reality seems to be echoed by others in this thread. Is this directly YOUR fault? nope. However, it is certainly frustrating. I think there’s a lot of factors that contribute to this.. ( our self worth as a group, lack of monopoly, stiff competition, and our unions) Nonetheless, to see a service provider increasing their service charge amount seems to fly in the face of reality facing this industry and the economy in general. There will be an impact on the public’s bottom line and our wages. This, in turn effects our/ our family’s bottom line and quality of life. Full stop.

I also see the efficiency frustrations... with any and all delays the PAX and company wants to know why. From pax alone shit rolls downhill onto us. I’ve had metering into YVR from 300nm out while being the only aircraft on the frequency. Why? Or, the days where we have gotten block time, fuel etc down and then there’s bizarre flow delays With very few aircraft on the radio. Why? Or, being told spacing is fine between us and the aircraft ahead then being told to hold at a low(er) altitude when approaching destination. Or the starts that hold us at 10,000 over the rocks where there’s upslope/orographic lift/ mechanical turbulence and we get the snot kicked out of us on the STAR.

With this being said, I also have had to use Nav CAN’s service in a few in-flight emergencies and the controllers had my back 100%. We functioned as a team very well... and I don’t think I’d have them do anything differently. The controllers helped me do my job in shitty circumstances and increased the safety margins of that flight. I do have those controllers where I’m happy to hear their voice and working with them brightens my day as well.

It’s not all bad. You guys are employees and are showing up for work as your told . With this being said, I hope my post sheds some light as to what’s happening on the other side of the fence too.

[wordstwice]

The ironic part of your explanation is you complain about flow delays (which I agree with) then others want controllers to be laid off which would result is exponentially larger are more sporadic delays....especially when traffic starts to return.

Nav Canada should not reduce controllers, they were extremely short staffed before anyways. However, why are new trainees being paid to stay home right now? Why are OTS staff (sim operators) being paid to stay home right now? Why are new shift managers still being hired (one new one just started in YVR)? Why are there dozens and dozens of middle management in the company doing nothing right now and getting paid?

Just because airlines are hurting doesn’t automatically mean controllers hurt too. So far they have taken a 6% pay cut, lost all their overtime and agreed to hold off on a back pay that was owed to them. Nav Canada can look at trimming ALOT of fat from its staff before touching controllers and if they do need to reduce staff there are 300 trainees in the system to start with.

We need to keep flying with no delays and when things pick up even a little we cannot afford to be hit with delays or runways closures etc etc. All of us should be supporting controllers to stay put even though most of us are going through a tremendously scary time.

On a side note I always thought Nav Canada needs to get out of the business of VFR airports. Why are we paying NC fees so they can keep Langley or buttonville open....individual cities or port authorities should run those like the States does.

[gtappl]

...
Controller salaries in Canada are on par with international salaries ...

We’re are in this together ...

Why should you get paid the same as controllers internationally? We aren't paid anywhere near what the US or other countries pay their pilots.

Could you explain to me what "We are in this together" means to you?

I personally think NC does a great job with the tools they are given. I have zero complaints about you, your professionalism, and the level of service you give day in and day out. But to say "we're all in this together" when you still have your high paying job, and our industry is coming apart at the seams all around us, and you are defending NC kicking us while we're down? What world are we in this together in?

Holy hell! I've never seen such a childish group of professionals in my life! What is your end goal? For everyone in Aviation to make minimum wage?

[McKinley]

Ggapl,

I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic?

The discussion is raising service fees when the aviation industry has been upended. ( pretty valid from where I’m sitting)

Nobody ( that I’ve read) has advocated for “ minimum wage for controllers or others in the industry.

I see a dialectical conversation regarding service fee increase, the positives of navcanada and their staff and frustrations with some systemic issues with Nav Can. There’s also discussion about WAWCON worsening for employees in the airlines while other segments appear to be bilking the industry and living high on the hog as a result..

You might see things differently and that’s ok.

[florch]

Ggapl,

I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic?

The discussion is raising service fees when the aviation industry has been upended. ( pretty valid from where I’m sitting)

Nobody ( that I’ve read) has advocated for “ minimum wage for controllers or others in the industry.

I see a dialectical conversation regarding service fee increase, the positives of navcanada and their staff and frustrations with some systemic issues with Nav Can. There’s also discussion about WAWCON worsening for employees in the airlines while other segments appear to be bilking the industry and living high on the hog as a result..

You might see things differently and that’s ok.

+1. This is the point of discussion.

[gtappl]

Ggapl,

I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic?

The discussion is raising service fees when the aviation industry has been upended. ( pretty valid from where I’m sitting)

Nobody ( that I’ve read) has advocated for “ minimum wage for controllers or others in the industry.

I see a dialectical conversation regarding service fee increase, the positives of navcanada and their staff and frustrations with some systemic issues with Nav Can. There’s also discussion about WAWCON worsening for employees in the airlines while other segments appear to be bilking the industry and living high on the hog as a result..

You might see things differently and that’s ok.

I'm exaggerating but people here seem to want to have things both ways. Nobody ever wants to accept pay cuts in hard times since you take years to negotiate them back (I'm totally willing to listen to this point since it seems to be the case) but we're also asking controllers to take a pay cut totally ignoring the previous statement.

Nav was understaffed, cutting pay will just make things worse when traffic returns and we can complain even more about how much they "suck"

[florch]

Ggapl,

I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic?

The discussion is raising service fees when the aviation industry has been upended. ( pretty valid from where I’m sitting)

Nobody ( that I’ve read) has advocated for “ minimum wage for controllers or others in the industry.

I see a dialectical conversation regarding service fee increase, the positives of navcanada and their staff and frustrations with some systemic issues with Nav Can. There’s also discussion about WAWCON worsening for employees in the airlines while other segments appear to be bilking the industry and living high on the hog as a result..

You might see things differently and that’s ok.

I'm exaggerating but people here seem to want to have things both ways. Nobody ever wants to accept pay cuts in hard times since you take years to negotiate them back (I'm totally willing to listen to this point since it seems to be the case) but we're also asking controllers to take a pay cut totally ignoring the previous statement.

Nav was understaffed, cutting pay will just make things worse when traffic returns and we can complain even more about how much they "suck"

I'm not sure anyone was advocating for a cut or layoffs. The point that caused a problem was that they raised their fees on airlines in trouble because their revenue was down. They didn't seek to cut their own costs first. Then parallels were drawn.

[TheRealPapaK]

Most trainees are in their 30’s with mortgages etc and are making very little. Get rid of them and most will be gone for good which will kick back training by at least 2 years. No offence but if you say pilot staffing/training and ATC staffing/training are similar, you showing you have no idea what you are talking about.
NC was critically staffed before. You literally have specialties that don’t have enough people to train so you can only trickle one trainee through at a time and 1/3 will make it. This isn’t an overtime protection thing. Just hard facts.

Everyone seems to think that one controller can automatically work more airspace outside of their specialty. Airspace changes take YEARS and training a controller into a new specialty takes at least 6 months.

Staffing is currently setup so that so if there is a covid out break in a facility, there is no loss of service. That requires the staffing to be less efficient than typical but the costs to the airlines would be way higher than routing around large swaths or closed airspace due to staffing.

Everyone seems to think there have been no cuts and NC is just heaping it on the airlines. There have been lots of trimming of fat but you don’t see it. Traffic is down to 25%-30% so a 70% cut to revenue but the rate increase is only 30%. What does that tell you about their cost cutting?

Controllers have taken pay cuts and voted to forego back pay wages during covid. Many nonoperational staff have been laid off and many more will be once CEWS stops.

Controller layoffs aren’t off the table. NC is a big ship and it takes a long time to turn. They don’t want to have a knee jerk reaction and have months of staffing issues that cost the airlines even more as they attempt to ramp up staffing again.

I feel like the controller/pilot relationship is overall very healthy with mutual respect both ways. Let’s try not to tarnish that. You’re all acting like airlines seat prices aren’t going to to rise 30% after they take out all the middle seats.

If you think controllers are over paid and don’t work very hard I recommend you apply. There is no age restriction and you are home every night. Maybe you should apply for management, a lot of you seem to think you know the inner workings of running an ANS better than the people who do it full time!

Lastly, as a not for profit, NC is legally not allowed to keep X amount of money in the bank. Hence why the rate cuts and rebates previously. It would be nice if they could stock up a rainy day fund but no one saw anything this magnitude coming so the way the system was designed is that NAV couldn’t weather anything out that lasted more than 6 months. Hopefully post covid that will change