New Bottom Feeder's

[planebored]

That's really too bad you have 12 years to go for your pension. Perhaps you should understand that every day we're laid off will have the same if not worse long lasting damage to the CWIPP earnings. Since we need to make more money earlier with this silly target benefit plan.

As for you financial obligations, again I feel for the situation you're in. But there are just as many other people who are laid off who all have bills, mortgages, school fees etc. to pay for as well. And the more you take draft, the longer it will be before people are recalled.

[Skyhunter]

I am CWIPP as well and probably a lot less time at AC to build a pension than you will have.

[rooster]

Rooster wrote:

Tell you what. Why don't all the senior pilots making bank freakin retire. That would open up what, 500-1000 positions at AC alone? What about WJ, Sunwing, TS, Flair, Canadian North etc? You had your turn, now step aside and let the young guys who are furloughed have their moment. I don't see much of that happening, yet you guys want to crucify guys for picking up OT. LOL!

Tell you what. It is not old guys crucifying anyone. It is the entitled little snots that want their “fair” share
The “senior pilots” went through layoffs. More than once for many. Yet you feel so entitled that they should just step out of the way so you can move up the seniority list.
Putin your time and rise up the list by working hard. Not suggesting other people move out of your way.

I never said it was the old guys crucifying anyone. I was making the point that pilots scream at each other for unity, yet there is so much divisiveness. Everyone crucifies everyone for something. Further, if you're going to crucify a guy for picking up OT while others are laid off, why not crucify the senior guys (especially those 60+ who pushed for retirement at 65), for not taking hanging it up and open up spots for junior guys who are out of work. Fact check for you, not all the 'junior' guys are young adults. Many are older, some even 50+. Whether it's right or wrong, why are we shitting on guys for picking up OT when there are other ways to help furloughed pilots.

Geeze you senior guys always think people who call you out are entitled young thundercats. Yeah, some are, but I find it funny you call them entitled little snots while you sit pretty on your perches getting to keep most of what you want enjoying your comfy salaries and your upcoming pensions. Trey ignorant if you ask me. Telling people to work hard and put in their time during a pandemic when job losses are out of their control is a slap in the damn face. Smarten up.

[trey kule]

Well rooster.
I am retired. But during my career I worked for an airline that closed the doors and left us literally standing on the street....and pension funds gone. Furloughed a couple other times as well.
But I never expected anyone higher than me on the seniority scale to step aside, take a reduced pension, quit doing what they love, and less money for afew years,just so I could have a job.

It is the epitome of arrogance and entitlement, in my opinion, to ask, or in some cases, demand, they should make that sacrifice so you, and others like you, can climb the ladder.

If you started later in life, it does not mean that they should step aside because of your decision. History will repeat itself, and I wonder at 60 if you will “step aside”.

It is tragic what is happening to the industry right now, and to all those furloughed. But it does not entitle them to expect others should step aside. Those senior pilots have paid their dues, and many still like what they are doing for a living.


I will however, in deference to your point in labelling them entitled little snots, to just label them as arrogant and entitled.

[mbav8r]

Well rooster.
I am retired. But during my career I worked for an airline that closed the doors and left us literally standing on the street....and pension funds gone. Furloughed a couple other times as well.
But I never expected anyone higher than me on the seniority scale to step aside, take a reduced pension, quit doing what they love, and less money for afew years,just so I could have a job.

It is the epitome of arrogance and entitlement, in my opinion, to ask, or in some cases, demand, they should make that sacrifice so you, and others like you, can climb the ladder.

If you started later in life, it does not mean that they should step aside because of your decision. History will repeat itself, and I wonder at 60 if you will “step aside”.

It is tragic what is happening to the industry right now, and to all those furloughed. But it does not entitle them to expect others should step aside. Those senior pilots have paid their dues, and many still like what they are doing for a living.


I will however, in deference to your point in labelling them entitled little snots, to just label them as arrogant and entitled.

Thanks for that, it’s truly unbelievable the selfishness of some. All the pilots left at AC have taken a 40% pay cut(55 hrs) so more can stay but that wasn’t enough for some. If I took a 40% cut in pay, I would definitely be doing overtime to cover the shortfall in my lifestyle.
By lifestyle, I’m talking bills, after the last furlough for me, it took 8 years to get back to the salary I was making prior, which had me dipping into my retirement savings and if things don’t improve by March next year, I could be doing it again with the inevitable downgrade(40%) paycut. If that happens, it’s almost a certainty I will not be retiring until 65 or later!
Don’t worry though, if the liberals have their way, they will have a bunch of green jobs for all of us, you won’t need to worry about moving up the ladder.

[dialdriver]

Well rooster.
I am retired. But during my career I worked for an airline that closed the doors and left us literally standing on the street....and pension funds gone. Furloughed a couple other times as well.
But I never expected anyone higher than me on the seniority scale to step aside, take a reduced pension, quit doing what they love, and less money for afew years,just so I could have a job.

It is the epitome of arrogance and entitlement, in my opinion, to ask, or in some cases, demand, they should make that sacrifice so you, and others like you, can climb the ladder.

If you started later in life, it does not mean that they should step aside because of your decision. History will repeat itself, and I wonder at 60 if you will “step aside”.

It is tragic what is happening to the industry right now, and to all those furloughed. But it does not entitle them to expect others should step aside. Those senior pilots have paid their dues, and many still like what they are doing for a living.


I will however, in deference to your point in labelling them entitled little snots, to just label them as arrogant and entitled.

Thanks for that, it’s truly unbelievable the selfishness of some. All the pilots left at AC have taken a 40% pay cut(55 hrs) so more can stay but that wasn’t enough for some. If I took a 40% cut in pay, I would definitely be doing overtime to cover the shortfall in my lifestyle.
By lifestyle, I’m talking bills, after the last furlough for me, it took 8 years to get back to the salary I was making prior, which had me dipping into my retirement savings and if things don’t improve by March next year, I could be doing it again with the inevitable downgrade(40%) paycut. If that happens, it’s almost a certainty I will not be retiring until 65 or later!
Don’t worry though, if the liberals have their way, they will have a bunch of green jobs for all of us, you won’t need to worry about moving up the ladder.

Due to various economic and medical reasons over my career, I expect to retire at age 65 with about $60k/yr pension. I may continue past 65 to top that up a bit. But, if I retired now to give my job to a younger pilot, I would live in near poverty for the rest of my life.

I can recall regional pilots on welfare when I was trying to find my first job.

You'll have to struggle through this like the rest of us did in our time.

[Taxivasion]

When most, if not all in the aviation sector, are both future and financially fuct, you’re the one who decides who’s a “bottom feeder”???
Shouldn’t we, individually, in our own specific circumstances, decide what’s best for us and our families?
Maybe more considerate thought is a wiser investment than just hitting the keyboard.

Gino Under

P.S. it’s ‘affecting’ not “effecting”.

Well regardless I think we can all agree SkyCare is the bottommost bottom feeder.

Why is SkyCare considered the bottom? I just started with them. New FO jobs are very far and few, and I had a decent amount of hours from pipelines and jumpers so I was direct into the FO position without ground time. Most of the people seem pretty straight forward and I was able to elect which base I preferred. Okay yeah the training bond is not ideal, but where else am I going for the next 1 to 2 years with no multi IFR time? PM if you want to chat offline, I’d like to hear your insights.

You're an idiot "Planebored"- Trash a company that's giving young pilots an opportunity and livelihood during the worst economic impact to the aviation sector in modern times. You were probably some boo-hoo, lazy prick that no one liked on the flightline and blamed all your problems on "management". Sometimes you just have to suck it up and work hard and do some hard flying. Nothing unsafe, but challenge yourself. Learn. Grow.

Blatantly trashing a company with no context is the lowest of the low. Grow up.

I know this company well and have no affiliation with them but this type of trash talking drives me nuts.

[planebored]

Well regardless I think we can all agree SkyCare is the bottommost bottom feeder.

Why is SkyCare considered the bottom? I just started with them. New FO jobs are very far and few, and I had a decent amount of hours from pipelines and jumpers so I was direct into the FO position without ground time. Most of the people seem pretty straight forward and I was able to elect which base I preferred. Okay yeah the training bond is not ideal, but where else am I going for the next 1 to 2 years with no multi IFR time? PM if you want to chat offline, I’d like to hear your insights.

You're an idiot "Planebored"- Trash a company that's giving young pilots an opportunity and livelihood during the worst economic impact to the aviation sector in modern times. You were probably some boo-hoo, lazy prick that no one liked on the flightline and blamed all your problems on "management". Sometimes you just have to suck it up and work hard and do some hard flying. Nothing unsafe, but challenge yourself. Learn. Grow.

Blatantly trashing a company with no context is the lowest of the low. Grow up.

I know this company well and have no affiliation with them but this type of trash talking drives me nuts.

Ok. Here's a few.

1) They have ridiculous bonds for Navajos and FO Metros (and if you move between planes)
2) Mx has been known to pencil whip pretty much everything and anything and their safety record shows. Some of the horror stories I heard about things there would blow your mind.
3) The owner is a dickbag who makes people do housework for him and has favorites, and pilots do it because they are too scared to say no. If you ever do anything remotely wrong you'll end up on the shit list and your ramp wait could go from 6 months to 2 years. Guys then just keep sticking around because they don't want to waste the years they worked on the ramp for nothing
4) They push their pilots to run in SKETCH weather, and with absolute minimum fuel and max loads
5) They string people along in dispatch positions while hiring OTS because they are "too good at dispatch and it would take too long to train someone new"


Should I keep going?

Skycare is a predatory company and sure they "give people their shot" but that's a pretty fucking low bar to hold them to.

[rooster]

Well rooster.
I am retired. But during my career I worked for an airline that closed the doors and left us literally standing on the street....and pension funds gone. Furloughed a couple other times as well.
But I never expected anyone higher than me on the seniority scale to step aside, take a reduced pension, quit doing what they love, and less money for afew years,just so I could have a job.

It is the epitome of arrogance and entitlement, in my opinion, to ask, or in some cases, demand, they should make that sacrifice so you, and others like you, can climb the ladder.

If you started later in life, it does not mean that they should step aside because of your decision. History will repeat itself, and I wonder at 60 if you will “step aside”.

It is tragic what is happening to the industry right now, and to all those furloughed. But it does not entitle them to expect others should step aside. Those senior pilots have paid their dues, and many still like what they are doing for a living.


I will however, in deference to your point in labelling them entitled little snots, to just label them as arrogant and entitled.

It's also asinine to criticize anyone for taking OT, yet here we are. Look just because you didn't have certain expectations of what others did or didn't do for you, it doesn't mean everyone else has to follow suit. If OT becomes available to a pilot, and he or she opts to take it, that's their choice. It is not for anyone to pass judgement. That is the basis of my point. Again, there are other ways to help our fellow furloughed pilots. And you elder fella's really need to stop assuming young guys are generally entitled snowflakes. And stop with the "well we had to endure it, and so should you" mentality. You seniors want respect? Try giving it.

The verbal battle aside, enjoy retirement. Might not be a bad time to sit on the sidelines and watch this unfold rather than live it, career wise (again in some peoples cases).

[dialdriver]

Why is SkyCare considered the bottom? I just started with them. New FO jobs are very far and few, and I had a decent amount of hours from pipelines and jumpers so I was direct into the FO position without ground time. Most of the people seem pretty straight forward and I was able to elect which base I preferred. Okay yeah the training bond is not ideal, but where else am I going for the next 1 to 2 years with no multi IFR time? PM if you want to chat offline, I’d like to hear your insights.

You're an idiot "Planebored"- Trash a company that's giving young pilots an opportunity and livelihood during the worst economic impact to the aviation sector in modern times. You were probably some boo-hoo, lazy prick that no one liked on the flightline and blamed all your problems on "management". Sometimes you just have to suck it up and work hard and do some hard flying. Nothing unsafe, but challenge yourself. Learn. Grow.

Blatantly trashing a company with no context is the lowest of the low. Grow up.

I know this company well and have no affiliation with them but this type of trash talking drives me nuts.

Ok. Here's a few.

1) They have ridiculous bonds for Navajos and FO Metros (and if you move between planes)
2) Mx has been known to pencil whip pretty much everything and anything and their safety record shows. Some of the horror stories I heard about things there would blow your mind.
3) The owner is a dickbag who makes people do housework for him and has favorites, and pilots do it because they are too scared to say no. If you ever do anything remotely wrong you'll end up on the shit list and your ramp wait could go from 6 months to 2 years. Guys then just keep sticking around because they don't want to waste the years they worked on the ramp for nothing
4) They push their pilots to run in SKETCH weather, and with absolute minimum fuel and max loads
5) They string people along in dispatch positions while hiring OTS because they are "too good at dispatch and it would take too long to train someone new"


Should I keep going?

Skycare is a predatory company and sure they "give people their shot" but that's a pretty fucking low bar to hold them to.

You might soon get an opportunity to prove your statements in court, at your defamation hearing.

[Taxivasion]

Why is SkyCare considered the bottom? I just started with them. New FO jobs are very far and few, and I had a decent amount of hours from pipelines and jumpers so I was direct into the FO position without ground time. Most of the people seem pretty straight forward and I was able to elect which base I preferred. Okay yeah the training bond is not ideal, but where else am I going for the next 1 to 2 years with no multi IFR time? PM if you want to chat offline, I’d like to hear your insights.

You're an idiot "Planebored"- Trash a company that's giving young pilots an opportunity and livelihood during the worst economic impact to the aviation sector in modern times. You were probably some boo-hoo, lazy prick that no one liked on the flightline and blamed all your problems on "management". Sometimes you just have to suck it up and work hard and do some hard flying. Nothing unsafe, but challenge yourself. Learn. Grow.

Blatantly trashing a company with no context is the lowest of the low. Grow up.

I know this company well and have no affiliation with them but this type of trash talking drives me nuts.

Ok. Here's a few.

1) They have ridiculous bonds for Navajos and FO Metros (and if you move between planes)
2) Mx has been known to pencil whip pretty much everything and anything and their safety record shows. Some of the horror stories I heard about things there would blow your mind.
3) The owner is a dickbag who makes people do housework for him and has favorites, and pilots do it because they are too scared to say no. If you ever do anything remotely wrong you'll end up on the shit list and your ramp wait could go from 6 months to 2 years. Guys then just keep sticking around because they don't want to waste the years they worked on the ramp for nothing
4) They push their pilots to run in SKETCH weather, and with absolute minimum fuel and max loads
5) They string people along in dispatch positions while hiring OTS because they are "too good at dispatch and it would take too long to train someone new"


Should I keep going?

Skycare is a predatory company and sure they "give people their shot" but that's a pretty fucking low bar to hold them to.

1) They have ridiculous bonds for Navajos and FO Metros (and if you move between planes)
- Pretty standard 1 year bonds. If you don't stick around for one year you're part of the problem with our industry
2) Mx has been known to pencil whip pretty much everything and anything and their safety record shows. Some of the horror stories I heard about things there would blow your mind.
Never Saw this. Maint was average for a northern operator
3) The owner is a dickbag who makes people do housework for him and has favorites, and pilots do it because they are too scared to say no. If you ever do anything remotely wrong you'll end up on the shit list and your ramp wait could go from 6 months to 2 years. Guys then just keep sticking around because they don't want to waste the years they worked on the ramp for nothing

Never saw or heard of this, If someone needs a helping hand in a small town, I'd help. Maybe it interfered with your video games and you're bitter?
4) They push their pilots to run in SKETCH weather, and with absolute minimum fuel and max loads
That's on them. Was never pressured and no meant no. this takes some maturity and respect earned
5) They string people along in dispatch positions while hiring OTS because they are "too good at dispatch and it would take too long to train someone new"
None was on dispatch for more than a few months with absolutely no time. This is false

Anything else?

[rooster]

Well regardless I think we can all agree SkyCare is the bottommost bottom feeder.

Why is SkyCare considered the bottom? I just started with them. New FO jobs are very far and few, and I had a decent amount of hours from pipelines and jumpers so I was direct into the FO position without ground time. Most of the people seem pretty straight forward and I was able to elect which base I preferred. Okay yeah the training bond is not ideal, but where else am I going for the next 1 to 2 years with no multi IFR time? PM if you want to chat offline, I’d like to hear your insights.

You're an idiot "Planebored"- Trash a company that's giving young pilots an opportunity and livelihood during the worst economic impact to the aviation sector in modern times. You were probably some boo-hoo, lazy prick that no one liked on the flightline and blamed all your problems on "management". Sometimes you just have to suck it up and work hard and do some hard flying. Nothing unsafe, but challenge yourself. Learn. Grow.

Blatantly trashing a company with no context is the lowest of the low. Grow up.

I know this company well and have no affiliation with them but this type of trash talking drives me nuts.

First, no company is giving young pilots, or any pilot, a shot out of compassion. A company hires because they need personnel. Simple.

Second, are you not seeing the irony in your post? You crucify him (or her) for 'trashing' a company, an opinion planebored is entitled to, yet you turn around and trash him. No no no...YOU grow up. Good grief

[iflyforpie]

You're an idiot "Planebored"- Trash a company that's giving young pilots an opportunity and livelihood during the worst economic impact to the aviation sector in modern times. You were probably some boo-hoo, lazy prick that no one liked on the flightline and blamed all your problems on "management". Sometimes you just have to suck it up and work hard and do some hard flying. Nothing unsafe, but challenge yourself. Learn. Grow.

Blatantly trashing a company with no context is the lowest of the low. Grow up.

I know this company well and have no affiliation with them but this type of trash talking drives me nuts.

Ok. Here's a few.

1) They have ridiculous bonds for Navajos and FO Metros (and if you move between planes)
2) Mx has been known to pencil whip pretty much everything and anything and their safety record shows. Some of the horror stories I heard about things there would blow your mind.
3) The owner is a dickbag who makes people do housework for him and has favorites, and pilots do it because they are too scared to say no. If you ever do anything remotely wrong you'll end up on the shit list and your ramp wait could go from 6 months to 2 years. Guys then just keep sticking around because they don't want to waste the years they worked on the ramp for nothing
4) They push their pilots to run in SKETCH weather, and with absolute minimum fuel and max loads
5) They string people along in dispatch positions while hiring OTS because they are "too good at dispatch and it would take too long to train someone new"


Should I keep going?

Skycare is a predatory company and sure they "give people their shot" but that's a pretty fucking low bar to hold them to.

You might soon get an opportunity to prove your statements in court, at your defamation hearing.

It’s not defamation if it’s true.

A younger pilot I know jumped ship with pages of unsafe and illegal things written down. One of them was a broken attitude indicator on the Metro that they said the FO “didn’t need” because it was “a single pilot aircraft”.

I told him to snag it and ask for the MEL and that aircraft operated two crew have to have an attitude indicator for each crew member. He quit within days with the threat to show his book to TC if they ever went after him for his bond.

I’d quit aviation forever before ever working for Sky Scare.

[Flitey]

I did as much draft as I saw fit when pilots were short before the pandemic, and I continue to do as much draft as I see fit now. I don't feel one bit guilty about it, as I worked hard to get to where I am, with plenty of setbacks and my share of PFOs. This might come as a shock to some of you, but I did not personally cause the pandemic or the slowdown associated, and I'm not going to sacrifice my financial well-being because the chair I landed in happened to be a bit more secure than some other chairs that others have landed in.

We havn't laid off anyone where I work, but I suppose our crews doing overtime has potentially prevented us from needing to hire laid off pilots from elsewhere, but I'm not going to have some thread on avcanada make me feel bad about that.

Also, what's with that apostrophe in "Feeder's"?

[rooster]

I did as much draft as I saw fit when pilots were short before the pandemic, and I continue to do as much draft as I see fit now. I don't feel one bit guilty about it, as I worked hard to get to where I am, with plenty of setbacks and my share of PFOs. This might come as a shock to some of you, but I did not personally cause the pandemic or the slowdown associated, and I'm not going to sacrifice my financial well-being because the chair I landed in happened to be a bit more secure than some other chairs that others have landed in.

We havn't laid off anyone where I work, but I suppose our crews doing overtime has potentially prevented us from needing to hire laid off pilots from elsewhere, but I'm not going to have some thread on avcanada make me feel bad about that.

Also, what's with that apostrophe in "Feeder's"?

Here here! Well said.

[planebored]

I did as much draft as I saw fit when pilots were short before the pandemic, and I continue to do as much draft as I see fit now. I don't feel one bit guilty about it, as I worked hard to get to where I am, with plenty of setbacks and my share of PFOs. This might come as a shock to some of you, but I did not personally cause the pandemic or the slowdown associated, and I'm not going to sacrifice my financial well-being because the chair I landed in happened to be a bit more secure than some other chairs that others have landed in.

We havn't laid off anyone where I work, but I suppose our crews doing overtime has potentially prevented us from needing to hire laid off pilots from elsewhere, but I'm not going to have some thread on avcanada make me feel bad about that.

Also, what's with that apostrophe in "Feeder's"?

If no one has been laid off at your company, then it's really a non issue.

[ayseven]

Um, just another observation: whether anybody gets overtime, or they hire another person, is the realm of the EMPLOYER.

[mbav8r]

I did as much draft as I saw fit when pilots were short before the pandemic, and I continue to do as much draft as I see fit now. I don't feel one bit guilty about it, as I worked hard to get to where I am, with plenty of setbacks and my share of PFOs. This might come as a shock to some of you, but I did not personally cause the pandemic or the slowdown associated, and I'm not going to sacrifice my financial well-being because the chair I landed in happened to be a bit more secure than some other chairs that others have landed in.

We havn't laid off anyone where I work, but I suppose our crews doing overtime has potentially prevented us from needing to hire laid off pilots from elsewhere, but I'm not going to have some thread on avcanada make me feel bad about that.

Also, what's with that apostrophe in "Feeder's"?

If no one has been laid off at your company, then it's really a non issue.

Planebored,
I can certainly empathize with you, as many pilots who have been in this industry since the early nineties can, we’ve all been through downturns, this does seem to be heading towards the worst in history but none the less affecting you now.
This being said, the pilots left at AC have also taken a pretty sizeable pay cut to save some jobs, so them taking OT is not likely to change the outcome.
I agree with the basic premise of no OT while pilots are on furlough but that’s if you are having a full block or normal paycheque, this simply is not the case, I hope you see the difference.

[planebored]

You do you mate.

Just remember not everyone being hired at AC is some 25 year old with a wet ATPL.

Many of those laid off in the last few months were widebody captains, 737 captains, regional captains etc. ranging from 30-50+...

Those same people lived through the 90's just like you did.

I for one have not been flying as long as them, but that doesn't mean I or others didn't hit bumps in the road to get where we are either.



I stand by my opinion that NO overtime when pilots are on furlough is the way it should be.

And one day when I'm old and grey, and the next downturn comes with furloughs I will stand by that and not take a single day of draft or VO while junior members are on the street.

[RobertAl]

Isn’t it perfectly legal to do overtime?