Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

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clippedwings
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Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by clippedwings »

With our industry in taters and little hope on the horizon, we as pilots must not sit idly by. There is nothing pilots can do to end COVID-19, open international boarders or herd paying customers onto planes during a global pandemic. However there is a great deal that can be done to ensure that pilots will regain and protect their jobs in the future. Pilots must as a group embrace the union movement and work together to ensure our future.

Unionization has always been portrayed by management as controversial, from the smallest 703s to the largest 705s. I believe the COVID-19 recession has shown all of us how valuable unions and collective agreements are. If anyone is questioning this, take the time to compare how pilots have been treated at unionized vs non unionized airlines. Airlines are corporations that only care about their own profit and often do not care for the people that work for them. We must ensure that pilots are treated fairly during the COVID-19 recession and that concessions made will only be temporary. If pilots do not present a united front, the airlines will take action with their own best interests in mind and little regard for their crews.

When travel recovers we must continue to negotiate fair collective agreements with the airlines and lobby the Canadian Government to ensure pilots are protected in future legislation. Many threats exist beyond the COVID-19 recovery and they must be fought on the offensive, not on the back foot.

I personally want to thank all those at ALPA Canada, the Air Canada Pilots Association and anyone else in the pilot union movement, who are defending pilots against airlines attempting every possible avenue to extract concessions. There are many pilots who are very thankful for your hard work. Keep fighting the good fight.
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PeterParker
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Re: Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by PeterParker »

There is an absolute need to unionize! Large corporations are only there to help themselves, their investors and their management. Never to help the little guy who is actually doing the actual work. For far too the long has the argument been made against unions using twisted logic. This pandemic has laid bare the hypocrisy of that argument! The rich have only gotten richer despite every economic indicator showing a shrinkage of the global economy and if that isn't proof enough, nothing will ever be!

The only person who will look after a pilot or a mechanic or a flight attendant or a rampie is another one of their kind. Stop tripping up your fellow employee in pursuit of false propaganda!
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MD-2
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Re: Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by MD-2 »

:roll:
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Gino Under
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Re: Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by Gino Under »

Unionize?
...and what? Save the airline industry. That's a solution?
Me? I don't think so.

Any basic economics course should help you see more clearly how airline management is in no way extorting anything from any of its employees. Let alone their pilots. If any of today's airlines hope to survive this pandemic they need to shutdown and go into hibernation to save themselves from spending money at a time when their income is practically non-existant. Passenger loads are approximately 12% of what they were a year ago. That's not going to save any airline. International traffic is even worse. High priced business travel is flat. Downsizing IS protecting the little guy who'll need his airline job back one day.

There are airlines (Lufthansa as an example) who've benefitted from government financial support and to this point in time that financial support has done NOTHING, zero, squat, diddley to elevate the survivability of Lufthansa.

I certainly appreciate everyone's anxiety during this pandemic. I'm no different than any of the other pilots I've talked to over the last 6 months about this pandemic and almost everyone of them understands where we are but no one knows where all of this is headed. Including me. I do know normal can't come soon enough. A number have decided to pursue other careers using the university degrees they earned in a previous life. (Engineering for example) Others have given up entirely and started the search for other options. Of course, there will be those, probably a greater number than some care to admit, who will miss out on opportunities by sacrificing their futures and waiting it out, perhaps even going bankrupt in the process, hoping for things to get back to normal. Whenever that's likely to be.

Be careful what you wish for. Unionizing isn't an answer.

Stay safe. Don't despair.
Keep your chin up.
Gino
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

*Scratching head*

Am I missing the joke?

Pretty sure every unionized airline in Canada and soon to be U.S laid off nearly their entire workforce, that includes airlines tied to ALPA and a lessor extent ACPA.

My impression is the only ones who didn't really take any major hits were medevac, cargo and corporate (other than a slight decline to charter specific operations). Most non unionized.

Unions help keep rotten apples in the basket, give crews something yammer about over beer oclock, and facilitate your termination when the company needs to trim back operations.

That and build a system of promotion thats designed less on merit by aptitude, and instead merit by time on property. This makes it difficult to transfer your skills to a another unionized company without a significant penalty.
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Last edited by schnitzel2k3 on Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
Dh8Classic
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Re: Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by Dh8Classic »

Something to think about before unionizing:

"Another problem with unionization has been brought to light during the coronavirus crisis: unionized employees can be laid off. Non-union ones, with some exceptions, cannot be. Laying them off is a constructive dismissal permitting them to sue for full wrongful dismissal damages of usually between three and 24 months."

https://financialpost.com/executive/car ... rus-crisis
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altiplano
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Re: Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by altiplano »

Dh8Classic wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:08 pm Something to think about before unionizing:

"Another problem with unionization has been brought to light during the coronavirus crisis: unionized employees can be laid off. Non-union ones, with some exceptions, cannot be. Laying them off is a constructive dismissal permitting them to sue for full wrongful dismissal damages of usually between three and 24 months."

https://financialpost.com/executive/car ... rus-crisis
That's the stupidest article I've ever read.

Comparing Foodora delivery people to nurses and teachers?

Clearly both nonunion and Union workers can be laid off. Look at WestJet and Air Canada... Both have laid off en masse...

An example, seems some WestJet staff have been complaining in recent media reports about inadequate severance and outsourcing of their positions. I've heard other worries limited recall rights. My union contract exceeds severance and layoff rights under the labor code... I own my return number as well if it comes to it.

I'm sure non unionised employees make up the bulk of Mr.Levitt's business.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by iflyforpie »

Just remember that the wastelands of aviation are littered with the airlines that unions broke. And plenty of card-carrying, dues-paying brothers and sisters from airlines that survived populate other industries after wage rollbacks, furloughs, lay-offs, or payouts ended their aviation careers. One of the reasons Westjet not only survived but thrived post-9/11 was lack of unions.. while Air Canada in 2004 was in the dead pool.

Unions are great for those who they benefit. People who don’t want to or can’t advance by merit and performance. People who’ve been on property a long time. People who make it past the line for fat trimming or bone cutting.

They aren’t for those that they don’t. Your ex-Forces C-17 commander who’s not working because the Seneca grad ahead of him with nothing but FO time in 1900s and Dash 8s was there longer than he was. The guy who left a decent 704 or 705 lite company who’s been on flat pay for three years and probably will never be able to come back all in the hopes of that mighty carrot on top decades from now.

You can’t get blood from a stone. Unions only really decide who stays and who goes. And for a company saddled with higher liabilities due to unions—unless there is an attendant increase in the quality of the product or service (I laugh every time I see “union made”), it just means they are more likely to lay you off or shut their doors.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
digits_
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Re: Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by digits_ »

iflyforpie wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:57 am Just remember that the wastelands of aviation are littered with the airlines that unions broke. And plenty of card-carrying, dues-paying brothers and sisters from airlines that survived populate other industries after wage rollbacks, furloughs, lay-offs, or payouts ended their aviation careers. One of the reasons Westjet not only survived but thrived post-9/11 was lack of unions.. while Air Canada in 2004 was in the dead pool.

Unions are great for those who they benefit. People who don’t want to or can’t advance by merit and performance. People who’ve been on property a long time. People who make it past the line for fat trimming or bone cutting.

They aren’t for those that they don’t. Your ex-Forces C-17 commander who’s not working because the Seneca grad ahead of him with nothing but FO time in 1900s and Dash 8s was there longer than he was. The guy who left a decent 704 or 705 lite company who’s been on flat pay for three years and probably will never be able to come back all in the hopes of that mighty carrot on top decades from now.

You can’t get blood from a stone. Unions only really decide who stays and who goes. And for a company saddled with higher liabilities due to unions—unless there is an attendant increase in the quality of the product or service (I laugh every time I see “union made”), it just means they are more likely to lay you off or shut their doors.
That might be true, but they also protect the pilots who speak up and report shady stuff. Depending on the company, that might be a big advantage.
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Re: Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by GRK2 »

"Just remember that the wastelands of aviation are littered with the airlines that unions broke."

Respectfully. Can you name them? I would guess that you're referring to Canadian companies.
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planebored
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Re: Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by planebored »

iflyforpie wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:57 am Just remember that the wastelands of aviation are littered with the airlines that unions broke. And plenty of card-carrying, dues-paying brothers and sisters from airlines that survived populate other industries after wage rollbacks, furloughs, lay-offs, or payouts ended their aviation careers. One of the reasons Westjet not only survived but thrived post-9/11 was lack of unions.. while Air Canada in 2004 was in the dead pool.
This is such a false truth.

AC had problems because they were forced to buy a dead-in-the-water airline called Canadian. Riddled with debt.
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Re: Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by cdnpilot77 »

I’m not sure I follow the logic. There is most definitely more unionized pilots out of work right now than non-unionized. So, how would a union save me?
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iflyforpie
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Re: Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by iflyforpie »

planebored wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:12 pm
iflyforpie wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:57 am Just remember that the wastelands of aviation are littered with the airlines that unions broke. And plenty of card-carrying, dues-paying brothers and sisters from airlines that survived populate other industries after wage rollbacks, furloughs, lay-offs, or payouts ended their aviation careers. One of the reasons Westjet not only survived but thrived post-9/11 was lack of unions.. while Air Canada in 2004 was in the dead pool.
This is such a false truth.

AC had problems because they were forced to buy a dead-in-the-water airline called Canadian. Riddled with debt.
And why were they dead in the water and riddled with debt? Why was CP dead in the water and riddled with debt? How was an upstart with three used 737s able to muscle in to a nation wide network with new planes and tons of destinations in less than a decade?

Keep asking and you’ll get the answer. ;)
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
planebored
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Re: Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by planebored »

iflyforpie wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:20 pm
planebored wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:12 pm
iflyforpie wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:57 am Just remember that the wastelands of aviation are littered with the airlines that unions broke. And plenty of card-carrying, dues-paying brothers and sisters from airlines that survived populate other industries after wage rollbacks, furloughs, lay-offs, or payouts ended their aviation careers. One of the reasons Westjet not only survived but thrived post-9/11 was lack of unions.. while Air Canada in 2004 was in the dead pool.
This is such a false truth.

AC had problems because they were forced to buy a dead-in-the-water airline called Canadian. Riddled with debt.
And why were they dead in the water and riddled with debt? Why was CP dead in the water and riddled with debt? How was an upstart with three used 737s able to muscle in to a nation wide network with new planes and tons of destinations in less than a decade?

Keep asking and you’ll get the answer. ;)
Because a bunch of pilots were willing to work for slave wages?

Keep undervaluing yourselves everyone.
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Re: Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by GRK2 »

iflyforpie wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:20 pm
planebored wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:12 pm
iflyforpie wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:57 am Just remember that the wastelands of aviation are littered with the airlines that unions broke. And plenty of card-carrying, dues-paying brothers and sisters from airlines that survived populate other industries after wage rollbacks, furloughs, lay-offs, or payouts ended their aviation careers. One of the reasons Westjet not only survived but thrived post-9/11 was lack of unions.. while Air Canada in 2004 was in the dead pool.
This is such a false truth.

AC had problems because they were forced to buy a dead-in-the-water airline called Canadian. Riddled with debt.
And why were they dead in the water and riddled with debt? Why was CP dead in the water and riddled with debt? How was an upstart with three used 737s able to muscle in to a nation wide network with new planes and tons of destinations in less than a decade?

Keep asking and you’ll get the answer. ;)
I'm still waiting for you to tell us which airlines failed because they were unionised, or better still exactly what those unions did to cause them to fail. You drank the Koolaid didn't you?
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Hangry
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Re: Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by Hangry »

He won't respond because he can't. Same old anti union nonsense. It's also hilarious hearing people slag seniority systems. Anyone with half a brain can understand that at a major airline it's really the only fair way to do it.
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Re: Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by RVR6000 »

iflyforpie wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:20 pm
planebored wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:12 pm
iflyforpie wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:57 am Just remember that the wastelands of aviation are littered with the airlines that unions broke. And plenty of card-carrying, dues-paying brothers and sisters from airlines that survived populate other industries after wage rollbacks, furloughs, lay-offs, or payouts ended their aviation careers. One of the reasons Westjet not only survived but thrived post-9/11 was lack of unions.. while Air Canada in 2004 was in the dead pool.
This is such a false truth.

AC had problems because they were forced to buy a dead-in-the-water airline called Canadian. Riddled with debt.
And why were they dead in the water and riddled with debt? Why was CP dead in the water and riddled with debt? How was an upstart with three used 737s able to muscle in to a nation wide network with new planes and tons of destinations in less than a decade?

Keep asking and you’ll get the answer. ;)

Also helps having access to stolen bookings and load data from your competitor.
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Re: Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by Mach1 »

planebored wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:12 pm AC had problems because they were forced to buy a dead-in-the-water airline called Canadian. Riddled with debt.
Why was AC forced to buy Canadian?

Canadian was putting together the financing to buy AC and the federal government blocked the deal. In exchange for blocking Canadian from buying AC (because you couldn't have 1: a western based company buy and own a Quebec based company and 2: the national flag carrier be based out west), AC had to buy Canadian because they were both in such bad shape one of them had to go. The giants had battled each other to death with price cuts. It's funny how none of the red team remembers or tells that side of the story.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Mach1 wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:30 am
planebored wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:12 pm AC had problems because they were forced to buy a dead-in-the-water airline called Canadian. Riddled with debt.
Why was AC forced to buy Canadian?

Canadian was putting together the financing to buy AC and the federal government blocked the deal. In exchange for blocking Canadian from buying AC (because you couldn't have 1: a western based company buy and own a Quebec based company and 2: the national flag carrier be based out west), AC had to buy Canadian because they were both in such bad shape one of them had to go. The giants had battled each other to death with price cuts. It's funny how none of the red team remembers or tells that side of the story.
👆🏻👍🏻 Canadian was an amazing company that loved it's people, but financially couldn't maintain the race to the bottom.

It's a shame what happened in the transition. Culture absolutely vaporized and became toxic overnight.
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Re: Lesson Learned, Unionize!!!

Post by dialdriver »

[/quote]

This is such a false truth.

AC had problems because they were forced to buy a dead-in-the-water airline called Canadian. Riddled with debt.
[/quote]

On August 20, 1999, Air Canada proposed a financial offer to Canadian Airlines which would see Canadian's International routes and airport slots sold to Air Canada for an undisclosed amount. Canadian Airlines would be relegated to be a regional carrier providing a feeder network to Air Canada. This offer was rejected.

Four days later, on August 24, 1999, Onex Corporation announced a takeover bid for Canadian Airlines, backed by American Airlines parent company AMR Corporation, consisting of $1.8B in cash and the assumption of $3.9B in debt. Canadian Airlines announced that it would support this and recommend acceptance from its shareholders. Air Canada rejected the offer. On August 31, 1999, Air Canada adopted a poison pill aimed at thwarting any takeover bid.

It was later (Sep 24, 1999) revealed by Kevin Benson that merger talks had occurred between Canadian Airlines and Air Canada in early 1999 with Air Canada abandoning the talks.

On October 19, 1999, Air Canada, backed by Star Alliance partners Lufthansa, United Airlines and CIBC announced a $930M counter bid to the Onex offer. Air Canada offered $92M for Canadian Airlines and committed to running it as a separate company. On November 2, Air Canada increased its offer to $16 per share to buy back 36.4 percent of the airline.

On November 5, 1999, a Quebec judge ruled that the Onex takeover was illegal, breaking the law that stipulates that no more than 10 percent of the company can be controlled by a single shareholder. Onex subsequently withdrew its offer and Air Canada stated it would proceed with the takeover of Canadian Airlines. On December 4, the board of directors at Canadian Airlines recommended the $92M offer from Air Canada to the shareholders. The offer from Air Canada originally expired at 5pm on December 7, 1999, but Air Canada extended their offer until December 23, 1999. Air Canada officially took control of Canadian Airlines, pending government approval, on December 8, 1999. The Federal Competition Bureau cleared the way for the takeover on December 21, 1999 and Canadian Airlines officially became a subsidiary of Air Canada on December 23, 1999.

Canadian Airlines operated as a subsidiary company through most of 2000. In October 2000, all of Canadian Airlines' systems and employees became fully integrated. WIth both companies fully integrated, Air Canada began massive cuts to employees starting with the announcement that there would be 3500 cuts in the workforce on December 22, 2000. September 26, 2001 saw an additional 5000 cuts primarily driven from the worldwide impact to the travel sector caused by the 9/11 attacks

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Airlines
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