Porter Problems

[Chocolatlab]

I have been listening to a friend of mine who works at Porter.
She has told me how they were inappropriately laid off without their 8 to 16 weeks notice of pay in lieu of layoff plus a decrease in benefits all of which go against Federal labor guidelines.
They have delayed restart over and over. String their employees along not allowing them the opportunity to go and get work.
Mortgage deferrals are now up and Porter is now asking for RAIC passes to be turned in.
A union would have protected you, but that is too late. November's restart will turn into December's restart which will turn into January's restart so on and so on.

You all need to stick together and fight for what is right and quit standing around and watching a dead horse on the ground.

[airliner]

Wow!

I have to say I'm a little bit shocked, but I guess we could ask Canada 3000 and air Ontario pilots how it worked out for them.

[airliner]

It was three days notice for layoff with no considerations for the employees financial well-being.

[airway]

Wow!

I have to say I'm a little bit shocked, but I guess we could ask Canada 3000 and air Ontario pilots how it worked out for them.

I’m not sure I understand how the problems Porter pilots are having right now are similar to Canada 3000 and Air Ontario.

Canada 3000 shut it doors, with no warning, permanently and there was little question that they would open again. They might have had some hopes for a month or so but that’s it. The Canada 3000 pilots knew they would have to look for another job. A union would not have helped them.

Air Ontario merged with other airlines to form Jazz. There was no shutdown.

[telex]

Wow!

I have to say I'm a little bit shocked, but I guess we could ask Canada 3000 and air Ontario pilots how it worked out for them.

I’m not sure I understand how the problems Porter pilots are having right now are similar to Canada 3000 and Air Ontario.

Canada 3000 shut it doors, with no warning, permanently and there was little question that they would open again. They might have had some hopes for a month or so but that’s it. The Canada 3000 pilots knew they would have to look for another job. A union would not have helped them.

Air Ontario merged with other airlines to form Jazz. There was no shutdown.

Remember C3 was ALPA.

[PRM1]

Nothing is stopping anybody from getting a job. Quite the opposite. The company allowing CEWS gives pilots the opportunity to earn extra money on the side which would not be the case with CERB or EI...

[PRM1]

I have been listening to a friend of mine who works at Porter.
She has told me how they were inappropriately laid off without their 8 to 16 weeks notice of pay in lieu of layoff plus a decrease in benefits all of which go against Federal labor guidelines.
They have delayed restart over and over. String their employees along not allowing them the opportunity to go and get work.
Mortgage deferrals are now up and Porter is now asking for RAIC passes to be turned in.
A union would have protected you, but that is too late. November's restart will turn into December's restart which will turn into January's restart so on and so on.

You all need to stick together and fight for what is right and quit standing around and watching a dead horse on the ground.

The airport authority is asking for RAICs to be returned, not Porter....

[airway]

Yeah I couldn’t remember if they had a union or not but my point was it didn’t matter if they had union or not. either way they were out of a job and knew they had to look for another one.

[Inverted2]

With the way things are going and the media pushing the “second wave” I don’t see them starting up again in the near future or ever. Most of Porters flying was to the east and south. 2 no-go zones for the foreseeable future.

[PT6onH20]

I was there for the first union drive that was turned down. ALPA WOULDNT HAVE SAVED THEM. But it sure would have put its pilots in a better position than they’re in now.

Family business trying to run an airline.

[Wayans]

I want to set the record straight here because there are a bunch of inaccuracies and baseless speculation with the OP.

We were not inappropriately laid off. The notice of layoff is only applicable if there is no intention of a recall, which management still has every intention in doing. They put it past their lawyers to double-check they weren't breaking rules - I promise that they wouldn't make a move like that without checking it out first. We aren't a mom and pop shop, despite the family business implications.

All employees in Canada were also given the option to return to being inactive employees in order to collect CEWS. It wasn't forced on the employees and our payroll department even created a benefit calculator to determine if CEWS or CERB would make more sense for those employees who made money that was close to or less than what CERB netted them. Thanks to CEWS, I can get one of those crappy warehouse jobs and nearly earn what I was earning before. For some, it may even be more money than prior to the shutdown.

We have delayed restart because most of our markets are down in excess of 90%. In the meantime, Porter fully owns all its aircraft and isn't laden down with masses of financing payments.

As previously mentioned - Porter didn't ask for our RAICs, the airport authority did. Porter has nothing to do with that.

Yes, they have continually delayed a month at a time. We are all tired of it, management included. They don't want to keep delaying any more than the employees, but the fact is they are trying to ensure the company doesn't lose money hand in fist by operating when there is no way to make money.

As for a union - a union would have argued that we shouldn't have shut down, and would just bicker with the company, delaying the inevitable. Unions would have argued we should have kept operating to keep money flowing to the employees. The result of that would have been the company bleeding millions of dollars for absolutely no reason, leaving it in a way worse position. Not to mention more of my paycheque would have been in the union pockets this entire time. Right now I'm ecstatic we don't have a union.

Do you think I'm happy I am not flying though? No of course not. But I also think that Porter will come out of this pandemic way stronger than most airlines because we have so little debt. The airline secured $135 million in loans to make sure we have capital to open up strong when needed. We get weekly updates informing us of the state of business and any other information that may be relevant to us.

Once the Atlantic bubble opens and the US border gets reopened, a large number (hopefully most, but how many no one can know for sure) of Porter employees will be right back to work, and the company will likely rebound far more quickly than other operators. Will those borders reopen anytime soon? Nope. But in the meantime the company isn't hemorrhaging money like many others. I'm damned happy I work at Porter during this whole mess quite frankly.

[planebored]

I have been listening to a friend of mine who works at Porter.
She has told me how they were inappropriately laid off without their 8 to 16 weeks notice of pay in lieu of layoff plus a decrease in benefits all of which go against Federal labor guidelines.
They have delayed restart over and over. String their employees along not allowing them the opportunity to go and get work.
Mortgage deferrals are now up and Porter is now asking for RAIC passes to be turned in.
A union would have protected you, but that is too late. November's restart will turn into December's restart which will turn into January's restart so on and so on.

You all need to stick together and fight for what is right and quit standing around and watching a dead horse on the ground.

But I just read another thread about how UNIONS R BAD

[planebored]

All employees in Canada were also given the option to return to being inactive employees in order to collect CEWS. It wasn't forced on the employees and our payroll department even created a benefit calculator to determine if CEWS or CERB would make more sense for those employees who made money that was close to or less than what CERB netted them. Thanks to CEWS, I can get one of those crappy warehouse jobs and nearly earn what I was earning before. For some, it may even be more money than prior to the shutdown.

You should email Calin R, and let him know.

Last I checked 600 pilots that I used to work with all got booted off CEWS.

[PRM1]

All employees in Canada were also given the option to return to being inactive employees in order to collect CEWS. It wasn't forced on the employees and our payroll department even created a benefit calculator to determine if CEWS or CERB would make more sense for those employees who made money that was close to or less than what CERB netted them. Thanks to CEWS, I can get one of those crappy warehouse jobs and nearly earn what I was earning before. For some, it may even be more money than prior to the shutdown.

You should email Calin R, and let him know.

Last I checked 600 pilots that I used to work with all got booted off CEWS.

He’s talking about Porter employees in Canada. The world does not revolve around AC for everyone...

[lownslow]

He’s talking about Porter employees in Canada. The world does not revolve around AC for everyone...

I too thought “All employees in Canada” was a weird way to say “All Porter employees” but when I think about it really hard I guess they do have US employees too.

Do Porter folks have the option of transitioning into a LOA once things get moving again? It would certainly help the transition out of any interim job.

Also, what are they going to do with $135mil, buy a couple used 737s?

[rudder]

Once the Atlantic bubble opens and the US border gets reopened, a large number (hopefully most, but how many no one can know for sure) of Porter employees will be right back to work, and the company will likely rebound far more quickly than other operators. Will those borders reopen anytime soon? Nope. But in the meantime the company isn't hemorrhaging money like many others. I'm damned happy I work at Porter during this whole mess quite frankly.

Well, I hope that works out for all of the Porter staff.

With those caveats in place you won’t be back to work until spring 2021 at the earliest.

[fliter]

A union is useful when the executives are raking in tons of profit and rolling in the dough while exploiting the workers.

A union is 100% useless when demand for the service the company provides drops to nearly 0.

I am not opposed to unions, but a union would have been completely useless in this situation. So let's say with a union we could've flown empty planes for another month or two, then the company would've gone bankrupt and that would have been that. I am far happier with how the situation has actually turned out. I mean, it's an awful mess, but Porter is not the bad guy here.

[rxl]

A union is useful when the executives are raking in tons of profit and rolling in the dough while exploiting the workers.

A union is 100% useless when demand for the service the company provides drops to nearly 0.

I am not opposed to unions, but a union would have been completely useless in this situation. So let's say with a union we could've flown empty planes for another month or two, then the company would've gone bankrupt and that would have been that. I am far happier with how the situation has actually turned out. I mean, it's an awful mess, but Porter is not the bad guy here.

Contrary to some opinion expressed on avcanada, unions do not "own" the work. They will have some negotiated rights to who does what job for an organization, but if there's no work, there's NO WORK. That's the reality. The term "own" is kind of meaningless in this context, but if any entity "owns" the work, it's the market. If the pandemic isn't proof of this fact, then I don't know what is.

Obviously, like every other airline, Porter is in survival mode right now. No business will survive long term with negative cash flow. Even Porter with its minimal expenses will, at some point, have to ask - what’s the point? Porter likely has more time than most until it reaches that point.
You are correct, it’s a mess and Porter is no more the “bad guy” than any other airline.
I will however ask you, did Porter's non-management employees have any input into the decision to totally shut down? Without a union, are you sure that all avenues that affect your employment were explored?

Unions are not the bad guy, nor are they "useless" either. Unions exist to protect and, when necessary, enhance the rights and benefits of workers under the applicable labour laws. They exist to make sure that workers get a fair shake in good times and in BAD TIMES. In bad times a union will attempt to protect as many jobs as is reasonably possible and protect the recall rights of laid-off employees when conditions improve.
A union will not and can not force their employer to fly "empty planes". A responsible union will not, through its actions, drive their employer into bankruptcy. A responsible union will work with the employer to help to ensure their mutual long term survival.
I have been a union member through good times and bad times since 1987. I wouldn't be without one right now.

[goingnowherefast]

Management gets the union they deserve. Porter management has done a pretty good job at taking care of, and being transparent with their employees. Porter as a company is in a shit situation. Not sure what a union could do, can't make customers with a pilot contract.

[fliter]

I will however ask you, did Porter's non-management employees have any input into the decision to totally shut down? Without a union, are you sure that all avenues that affect your employment were explored?

No, they did not. But I honestly don't think a union could have come up with some magic plan. I agree a union could be very useful in bad times, but in this particular case I don't see much of a difference.

Unions are not the bad guy, nor are they "useless" either. Unions exist to protect and, when necessary, enhance the rights and benefits of workers under the applicable labour laws. They exist to make sure that workers get a fair shake in good times and in BAD TIMES. In bad times a union will attempt to protect as many jobs as is reasonably possible and protect the recall rights of laid-off employees when conditions improve.

These are fair points, but I can also see how a union could have worsened outcomes in this case by trying to delay the shutdown. May not have forced the company straight into bankruptcy, but possibly into a shakier financial position, yes. I think Porter tends to respect seniority and I don't think there will be anything seriously unfair with recalls once (if?...) they do finally commence.

I really don't disagree with you on this, I just don't think this is a great example of "Hey, here is a painfully obvious case how a union would have been helpful."