Trudeau Throne Speech.. any comprehensive support for aviation?

[McKinley]

Hey,

I didn’t watch the hour long speech...did the aviation sector receive any support in line with other developed countries? Or have we been relegated to fly solo so to speak... ?

I don’t want to get into the ticket refund debate...

Thanks in advance..

Be well...

[3down&loct]

Do not hold your breath for numb nuts to help out. F*^king clueless idiot.

[Inverted2]

He’s giving a casino company 200 million but nothing for airlines.

https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... 663-4-.htm

[Zaibatsu]

Flying sector? I doubt he knows it even exists.

[schnitzel2k3]

Hmmm, has the airline industry fully reimbursed its passengers that had their flying cancelled? I know in Europe they are required to, at which point the various governments supoorted the airline industry.

Real world example of a person I ran into last week.

Pre-covid, booked flight for 6500 to Cancun with his family. This was a package offered on Westjet's website. Westjet issued a credit due to covid as they were unable to travel. This credit can only be used at a maximum amount of 312.00 PER TRIP with a 70.00 reservation fee on top of this. This is 6500.00 dollars of this small business owners money Westjet is holding captive.

I feel horrible for my fellow flight crew, but the management has shown no good faith other than wanting handouts to continue to operate the way they are. Do you really think they are going to throttle right back up once that billion dollar cheque is cut?

That's c-suite bonus money. And like all good Canadian handouts will vanish faster than a fart in the wind.

[twa22]

Hmmm, has the airline industry fully reimbursed its passengers that had their flying cancelled? I know in Europe they are required to, at which point the various governments supoorted the airline industry.

Real world example of a person I ran into last week.

Pre-covid, booked flight for 6500 to Cancun with his family. This was a package offered on Westjet's website. Westjet issued a credit due to covid as they were unable to travel. This credit can only be used at a maximum amount of 312.00 PER TRIP with a 70.00 reservation fee on top of this. This is 6500.00 dollars of this small business owners money Westjet is holding captive.

I feel horrible for my fellow flight crew, but the management has shown no good faith other than wanting handouts to continue to operate the way they are. Do you really think they are going to throttle right back up once that billion dollar cheque is cut?

That's c-suite bonus money. And like all good Canadian handouts will vanish faster than a fart in the wind.

Yes, but... I don't know the situation regarding refunds in Europe, but most of the majors have gotten bailouts. So logically, that would allow a company more breathing room to give back full refunds. That said, some family from Europe was supposed to come visit this summer and they were supposed to fly with Lufthansa. As far as I know, they weren't given their money back. They were given up to end of the year to rebook their flights for travel within a specified window in the future, so I don't how much of that refunds happening in Europe is true.

I guess it's one of those give and take things, both parties have to help/compromise, but the utter lack of interest of even raising a finger to help the airline industry here is truly appalling... and CEWS for employees doesn't count because that was given to everyone, not just the airlines

[Mach1]

Flying sector? I doubt he knows it even exists.

He has a free (taxpayer funded) private airplane he's made more use of in his first year in office than the previous government did in 4 years... why would he care if the filthy masses have access to travel? Better if they don't.

['97 Tercel]

JT has an amazing ability to talk for awhile but really say nothing at all.

IMO, he's an airy-fairy rainbow unicorn sprinkling nothing but targeted vote-buying dollars.

[rigpiggy]

He’s giving a casino company 200 million but nothing for airlines.

https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... 663-4-.htm

Well it is in PQ

[Old fella]

Hmmm, has the airline industry fully reimbursed its passengers that had their flying cancelled? I know in Europe they are required to, at which point the various governments supoorted the airline industry.

Real world example of a person I ran into last week.

Pre-covid, booked flight for 6500 to Cancun with his family. This was a package offered on Westjet's website. Westjet issued a credit due to covid as they were unable to travel. This credit can only be used at a maximum amount of 312.00 PER TRIP with a 70.00 reservation fee on top of this. This is 6500.00 dollars of this small business owners money Westjet is holding captive.

I feel horrible for my fellow flight crew, but the management has shown no good faith other than wanting handouts to continue to operate the way they are. Do you really think they are going to throttle right back up once that billion dollar cheque is cut?

That's c-suite bonus money. And like all good Canadian handouts will vanish faster than a fart in the wind.

I have been hearing and reading that many who unfortunately were in circumstances as you noted were successful in getting refunds through their credit card providers under the “ services not rendered “ clause. If one has a Premium Card success rate is even better as a family member(sister’s daughter)told me who works at CIBC. You have to supply required documentation and it varies with different CC providers, wait time for reverse charges could be a few weeks to couple of months. It’s on an individual basis and amount in question that sets the time frame. Again, success rates are better than many believe. If I was in that situation and succeeded in getting reverse charges, it would be a long time before I set foot on WJ.

[schnitzel2k3]

Hmmm, has the airline industry fully reimbursed its passengers that had their flying cancelled? I know in Europe they are required to, at which point the various governments supoorted the airline industry.

Real world example of a person I ran into last week.

Pre-covid, booked flight for 6500 to Cancun with his family. This was a package offered on Westjet's website. Westjet issued a credit due to covid as they were unable to travel. This credit can only be used at a maximum amount of 312.00 PER TRIP with a 70.00 reservation fee on top of this. This is 6500.00 dollars of this small business owners money Westjet is holding captive.

I feel horrible for my fellow flight crew, but the management has shown no good faith other than wanting handouts to continue to operate the way they are. Do you really think they are going to throttle right back up once that billion dollar cheque is cut?

That's c-suite bonus money. And like all good Canadian handouts will vanish faster than a fart in the wind.

I have been hearing and reading that many who unfortunately were in circumstances as you noted were successful in getting refunds through their credit card providers under the “ services not rendered “ clause. If one has a Premium Card success rate is even better as a family member(sister’s daughter)told me who works at CIBC. You have to supply required documentation and it varies with different CC providers, wait time for reverse charges could be a few weeks to couple of months. It’s on an individual basis and amount in question that sets the time frame. Again, success rates are better than many believe. If I was in that situation and succeeded in getting reverse charges, it would be a long time before I set foot on WJ.

Agreed, I'll check back in with him this week and let him know to push a little harder for a refund with his CC.

I think he is relying too much on WS to do the right thing.

[digits_]

and CEWS for employees doesn't count because that was given to everyone, not just the airlines

Say what now? If anything, CEWS is extremely good for aviation employers, as it allows them to retain highly trained workers at a subsidized rate.

If every company would, hypothetically, get a loan valued at 20% of their previous year's revenue, would you not be happy because it's not just the airlines who get it?

[Launchpad1]

Say what now? If anything, CEWS is extremely good for aviation employers, as it allows them to retain highly trained workers at a subsidized rate.

Exactly! It is a subsidy for the airlines (just happens to not be unique to the airlines). It also helps Pilots very much as the amount is enough to survive off for awhile. Try getting another job in a time like this with Pilot on your resume.

[twa22]

and CEWS for employees doesn't count because that was given to everyone, not just the airlines

Say what now? If anything, CEWS is extremely good for aviation employers, as it allows them to retain highly trained workers at a subsidized rate.

If every company would, hypothetically, get a loan valued at 20% of their previous year's revenue, would you not be happy because it's not just the airlines who get it?

I didn't say it wasn't good, where did I write that? I said it doesn't count as an airline specific bailout. CEWS pays for aviation employers to keep employees on payroll, it doesn't pay for parked planes that are hemorrhaging money, or close to empty pax flights which are likely losing a ton of money, unless they have enough cargo in the belly to compensate...Unless i'm missing something and CEWS covers that, but then it wouldn't be called "Canadian Emergency Wage Subsidy" now would it?

For all those who are saying that airlines shouldn't get bailouts, what do you suggest? Let them burn, go bankrupt? Let half the pilot workforce be permanently unemployed? I don't get it, we're all pilots here, we should all be joining forces and petitioning the government for help, which some good folk are trying to do. Even if you're not an airline pilot, the airline sector has a tremendous effect on every sector in this business... airlines go, and the aviation sector declines, we're all screwed.... cargo is likely the only thing that's not affected in this scenario, but they seem to be doing just fine nowadays

[FL320]

It also helps Pilots very much as the amount is enough to survive off for awhile.

Yeahhh...when you were making 5500$ per week (on which you were giving 2000$ back to the government) which in return gives you 847$...enough you say? It’s just unfair!

[altiplano]

Canada is the only G7 country not offering support to their Airlines.

Why is that? Are we somehow smarter than Germany or Japan or Britain or France? Letting our airlines fail is good policy?

Fact is we have a dolt in the Front Office of this country. Not only is there no support, we have among the most Draconian restrictions to travel even within our own borders.

Enough is enough.

[Air.Field]

wasn't there suppose to be some rally in Ottawa by those in the aviation industry on the 23rd? Haven't seen anything about it in the news. If there was, certainly shows the impact it had

[Inverted2]

Canada is the only G7 country not offering support to their Airlines.

Why is that? Are we somehow smarter than Germany or Japan or Britain or France? Letting our airlines fail is good policy?

Fact is we have a dolt in the Front Office of this country. Not only is there no support, we have among the most Draconian restrictions to travel even within our own borders.

Enough is enough.

+1

Castreau wants to see airlines go under. It’s part of his green agenda. He doesn’t have to worry about airline travel so he doesn’t care.

[twa22]

wasn't there suppose to be some rally in Ottawa by those in the aviation industry on the 23rd? Haven't seen anything about it in the news. If there was, certainly shows the impact it had

As far as I know it was postponed so even more people can be gathered

[altiplano]

Canada is the only G7 country not offering support to their Airlines.

Why is that? Are we somehow smarter than Germany or Japan or Britain or France? Letting our airlines fail is good policy?

Fact is we have a dolt in the Front Office of this country. Not only is there no support, we have among the most Draconian restrictions to travel even within our own borders.

Enough is enough.

+1

Castreau wants to see airlines go under. It’s part of his green agenda. He doesn’t have to worry about airline travel so he doesn’t care.

Right? He flies private anyway and has a trust fund to keep him comfortable his whole life... doesn't mean shit to him.

[Gino Under]

For airlines, a focus on 'getting back to 2019 ' ignores reality
By Lewis Harper 23 September 2020

There are few more commonly asked questions in the airline industry today than “when will we be back to 2019 levels of demand and revenue?”
As with many coronavirus crisis-related discussions – involving airlines or otherwise – it is tempting to focus on getting back to how things were, even at the cost of considering that some changes might be for the better.
For airlines, estimates of when that return to “normality” will be achieved average around the 2024 mark.
The simplicity of this answer often encourages a rather simplistic take on the industry’s predicament.
“Get through this tricky patch, then it’s back to a growth trajectory from next year onwards.”
But the concept of a return to 2019 levels is really a rather moot one for most operators.
That the industry will be smaller for years to come is already baked into proceedings, as chunks of fleets are retired and tens of thousands of employees let go.
The next few years are not about a journey back to the pre-Covid world; they are about the industry finding a new footing, then establishing a sustainable growth path in a post-pandemic environment.
“Anybody who believes that this is just a temporary crisis and can be resolved through temporary measures is misguided,” said departing IAG chief executive Willie Walsh in early August, while noting that securing enough liquidity is only one part of a viable survival strategy.
There are structural changes under way, which will affect all airlines – and some more than others.
Walsh was perhaps most conscious of a fundamental shift in corporate markets, causing a decline in business travel – an area critical to network carriers with their premium seating-heavy widebody jets.
Other markets – notably the long-haul leisure sector – are also facing a tougher recovery path, raising the prospect that the current generation of passengers becomes more accustomed to shorter-haul trips as different traveller habits are formed.
At the same time, airlines are facing the next few years much more heavily indebted than they could have ever imagined. For that reason, and others, only the most reckless operators are likely to emerge from this crisis without a new-found focus on building liquidity.
For many airlines, a return of governments having a bigger say over strategy is also an inevitable – and arguably regressive – step following various state bailouts across the sector.
All the while, sustainability is starting to become baked into every strategic decision for some carriers – with several bailouts in Europe contingent on environmental targets being met.
Another structural change is the simple fact that airlines are adjusting to being smaller operations.
That said, accelerated industry consolidation is likely to become a consequence of current woes at some point.
A shift in power might also be under way, with those airlines fortunate enough to have a large domestic market to serve likely to emerge from the crisis in a much stronger position than those with a heavy reliance on open international borders.
And eventually, new operators unencumbered by pre-Covid employee contracts, fleet burdens and high debt might spy an unusually attractive opportunity to enter the market.
Customers’ expectations are also likely to change, as they demand more health measures – even once the virus is under control.
Ultimately, these factors and more mean that when the industry does return to those heady days of 2019 demand and revenue, success is likely to be measured on different terms than those imagined just months ago.
And, although the coronavirus crisis has been horrific for the industry, it is important to note that structural changes are not always for the worse.
Rather than “when will we back to 2019 levels?”, a more meaningful question is therefore: “What will the industry look like when we get there?”

The German government gave $10B in aid to Lufthansa in May. Lufthansa is now saying the financial assistance isn't having the desired effect despite layoffs, early retirements, fleet reductions, etc,. and may need more from their government. How will Canada's airlines fare if government assistance eventually shows up and how long will any positive effect last? It may be nothing more than trying to defibrillate a dying patient.
So now we await the pronouncement.

Gino Under

[gtappl]

Canada is the only G7 country not offering support to their Airlines.

Why is that? Are we somehow smarter than Germany or Japan or Britain or France? Letting our airlines fail is good policy?

Fact is we have a dolt in the Front Office of this country. Not only is there no support, we have among the most Draconian restrictions to travel even within our own borders.

Enough is enough.

We subsidize nothing in this country, and tax everything. It's fun explaining to Americans our airports have to make a profit while theirs get subsidies.

[Gino Under]

Canada can't subsidize everything. Certainly the focus on a very narrow or specific group of subsidy benefactors doesn't meet the fairness metric when it comes to doling out the taxpayer's money.

I'm envious of nothing American. Their introverted, self-centered focus on how they view the world stops within their shores and their borders with Mexico and Canada.
It is a country printing dollars to claim it's wealth and "greatness". Backed up by what? Paying $750 in annual income taxes?
If you think I'm telling you little porky's, have a look at this link.

https://usdebtclock.org/

This is how you visualize their greatness.

Want to see our greatness?
https://www.debtclock.ca/

cheers,
Gino Under

[piperdriver]

Donald Trump tweeted this message late on October 6th:

The House & Senate should IMMEDIATELY Approve 25 Billion Dollars for Airline Payroll Support, & 135 Billion Dollars for Paycheck Protection Program for Small Business. Both of these will be fully paid for with unused funds from the Cares Act. Have this money. I will sign now!

[Ratherbe]

Our government has created a severely uneven playing field for the Canadian airline industry by not supporting it in the manner that all G20 countries have supported their airlines. I fear that the Liberals and Greens are happy to see us fail as this will reduce emissions. The Conservatives have in the past supported open skies and cabotage which would allow such progressive countries like China and the UAE to dominate our skies with their 4-engined A380s. Does the NDP even support our industry?

I wish ALPA and ACPA would demand WJ and AC management cancel all flights into YOW next week after Thanksgiving until this is resolved. The House reconvenes on October 19th.

If ever there was a time for a wildcat strike this is it.