Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Discuss topics relating to airlines.

Moderators: Sulako, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia

ALPApolicy
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:34 am

Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by ALPApolicy »

As a commuter, sometimes from B.C. to YYZ, I am trying to understand the new regs coming into force. Regarding acclimatization, my fellow BC to YYZ commuter believes that it does not affect him. I disagree. It is my belief that if I have been at home in BC for 5 days and then I commute to YYZ today and arrive mid afternoon (for a pairing tomorrow with a report time of 6:30 a.m.) that the new regulations require I use a report time of (6:30 a.m. - 3 hours time zone difference) 3:30 a.m. for the purposes of determining my maximum flight duty period.

In my example, using a report time of 6:30 a.m., the company could design the pairing with a 12 hour maximum duty period (consulting the table in CAR 700.28(4)) on the first day. Because of my acclimatization, I would have to use 3:30 a.m. for determining the maximum duty period. Consulting the table, I get a 9 hour maximum duty period, potentially making me unable to legally do the first day of the pairing.

Am I correct in my understanding?

.
.
.
L
C1A21B68-B74F-45B9-91FC-A1A26514DF19.jpeg
C1A21B68-B74F-45B9-91FC-A1A26514DF19.jpeg (616.33 KiB) Viewed 2528 times
---------- ADS -----------
 
ALPApolicy
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:34 am

Re: Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by ALPApolicy »

The above table is from the Canada Gazette issue published two years ago with the proposed regulations. With reference to those proposed regulations, it says this:

700.28(5) For the purposes of subsections (2) to (4), a flight crew member is considered to be acclimatized if

(a) in the case of a time zone difference of less than four hours between local time and the time at the last location where the member was acclimatized,...


Logically and intuitively, I think it is understandable that if I am in BC for five days, I am acclimatized there, meaning my body clock and physiology are aligned with that time zone. But according to the new REGs, am I acclimatized to BC?
---------- ADS -----------
 
ALPApolicy
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:34 am

Re: Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by ALPApolicy »

The attachment is a screenshot of the first day of a four day pairing in our system. If I understand the new regulations correctly, as a BC commuter, if I flew into YYZ today and arrived mid afternoon, for this pairing starting tomorrow, I could not do it legally as the duty period is 9 hours 49 minutes, and my acclimatized time zone makes the report time 2:30 a.m., therefore I can only work 9 hours duty.

Okay, I will wait for some commentary, if any.
3B35A34F-D6D5-4ED9-9A0E-C6167AF615CC.jpeg
3B35A34F-D6D5-4ED9-9A0E-C6167AF615CC.jpeg (100.15 KiB) Viewed 2465 times
---------- ADS -----------
 
Cessna 180
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 383
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:28 pm
Location: YKF

Re: Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by Cessna 180 »

There's going to be a lot of under the table commuting happening I presume.

edit: I also think the crew rest monitoring system is going to be key to this working. I'm not sure about others, but I'm not a morning person and a 13 hour duty day starting at 7:00 is hard for me. Same pairing at 13:00 is a lot easier.

It also hurts guys who work cargo or other overnight type flying since the requirement for days off after working red eyes or multiple time zone change flights annihilates having blocks of days off. for many, that's a huge draw to working at an airline.

it's probably a step in the right direction, but like anything TC does, it's riddled with faults and loopholes (like how did CAR 703 medevac get away with keeping the old system).
---------- ADS -----------
 
fish4life
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1876
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by fish4life »

Your base is where your initial acclimatized time zone starts and ends.
---------- ADS -----------
 
ALPApolicy
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:34 am

Re: Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by ALPApolicy »

fish4life wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:26 am Your base is where your initial acclimatized time zone starts and ends.
So, is it your understanding that where I spent my days off prior to pairing start won’t affect my max flight duty period?
---------- ADS -----------
 
rudder
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2317
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by rudder »

The revised CAR’s duty limits have nothing to do with commuting. Is somebody driving 4 hours to work affected? No. Just show up rested and fit for planned duty period.

All the new rules had to be programmed in to crew tracking software for company operations purposes. Having said that, for those purposes and acclimation limitations your designated home base will not necessarily be where you live.
---------- ADS -----------
 
ALPApolicy
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:34 am

Re: Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by ALPApolicy »

Thank you, rudder. That makes sense. I've had divergent opinions from pilots, some in an administrative role within the company, but no official comments from our standards team.

Standing by.
---------- ADS -----------
 
mijbil
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:06 pm
Location: Rain Coast

Re: Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by mijbil »

Will these rules apply to sims as well? It's only 4 hours - 6 with the briefs, but I work a lot harder there than on the line.....well back when that was reality.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DirtyDashDriver
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 12:00 pm

Re: Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by DirtyDashDriver »

mijbil wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:06 pm Will these rules apply to sims as well? It's only 4 hours - 6 with the briefs, but I work a lot harder there than on the line.....well back when that was reality.
The new rules apply to any type of company assigned duty period, so yes, sim too. That's what the new 2,200 hour per year maximum duty is meant to cover.

To take it as far as it could go, we've been told that answering the phone or an e-mail is considered duty and would interrupt a rest period or extend a duty day (I'm in standards at my company) and that is from our POI.

As far as commuting, rudder is right: acclimatization only exists when you are operating (for now). The phrase we've been taught is that "you're always acclimatized to home base until you're not as a result of duty."

With that said, it will be up to the pilot to demonstrate they are fit for duty, so I'm suggesting that people just be ready to explain to an over-enthusiastic inspector how they're fit after crossing four time zones in the back of the bus. Not hard, but just in case.
---------- ADS -----------
 
bobcaygeon
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:03 am

Re: Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by bobcaygeon »

They cant touch commuting on your own time despite the fact that is has the exact same effects on fatigue. One pilot D/H's YVR-YYZ it's duty day so he can't do very much that day. Meanwhile his coworker commutes on the same flight and then does a HAV or LAX turn legally.

ACPA/ALPA dodged/avoided this question soooooo many times. When it's on your own airline code and easy trackable (vs jumpseat on on another carrier) I cant understand how both the unions and the company can allow it.

"I remember, I remember Buffalo
And I remember Hengelo
It would seem to me, I remember every single fucking thing I know" ..........
---------- ADS -----------
 
ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 6206
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by ahramin »

bobcaygeon wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:44 pmACPA/ALPA dodged/avoided this question soooooo many times. When it's on your own airline code and easy trackable (vs jumpseat on on another carrier) I cant understand how both the unions and the company can allow it.
How could they not allow it? If two people get a good night's sleep and wake up at the same time GMT and eight hours later start a duty day, is the one who woke up in YVR and took a flight to YYZ more fatigued than the one who woke up in YYZ? Other than the requirement to be rested, how could the union or the company dictate what we do on our time off?
---------- ADS -----------
 
tbaylx
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 815
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:30 pm

Re: Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by tbaylx »

If commuters start saying they can't do a duty day because they're not acclimatized you bet the company will be shutting down commuting in a hurry. It'll be a live where you're based policy in short order.

In all likelihood it will continue with the current don't ask don't tell method of doing business. Show up for work fit for your duty which is calculated on where you're based, not where you live for acclimatization purposes.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Inverted2
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2446
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:46 am
Location: Ontario

Re: Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by Inverted2 »

Or you’ll have to commute in the day before your pairing starts......
---------- ADS -----------
 
fish4life
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1876
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by fish4life »

You can easily acclimatize to a new zone by changing your sleeping times as well. Personally even though I live in one time zone if left to days off I go to bed around 2-3 am while my wife goes to bed at 9-10pm. We are essentially acclimatized to 5 ish hours apart even though we live in the same time zone.
---------- ADS -----------
 
AuxBatOn
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3283
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by AuxBatOn »

fish4life wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:52 pm You can easily acclimatize to a new zone by changing your sleeping times as well. Personally even though I live in one time zone if left to days off I go to bed around 2-3 am while my wife goes to bed at 9-10pm. We are essentially acclimatized to 5 ish hours apart even though we live in the same time zone.
I would suggest that your circadian rhythm is not only affected by the time you sleep but also by when you sleep in relation to the sun’s cycles. It would help to shift your sleeping habits to match a future timezone however, I am not sure I would be ready to call myself acclimatized.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Going for the deck at corner
fish4life
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1876
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by fish4life »

AuxBatOn wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:22 pm
fish4life wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:52 pm You can easily acclimatize to a new zone by changing your sleeping times as well. Personally even though I live in one time zone if left to days off I go to bed around 2-3 am while my wife goes to bed at 9-10pm. We are essentially acclimatized to 5 ish hours apart even though we live in the same time zone.
I would suggest that your circadian rhythm is not only affected by the time you sleep but also by when you sleep in relation to the sun’s cycles. It would help to shift your sleeping habits to match a future timezone however, I am not sure I would be ready to call myself acclimatized.
For my wife and I it’s not switching sleeping habits, it is our natural sleep times in the same time zone yet we are hours apart. That’s why I’m saying acclimatization is one thing but individual sleep patterns and bring a “morning person” or “evening person” can make just as big if not a bigger difference than time zones.
---------- ADS -----------
 
bobcaygeon
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:03 am

Re: Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by bobcaygeon »

ahramin wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:58 pm
bobcaygeon wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:44 pmACPA/ALPA dodged/avoided this question soooooo many times. When it's on your own airline code and easy trackable (vs jumpseat on on another carrier) I cant understand how both the unions and the company can allow it.
How could they not allow it? If two people get a good night's sleep and wake up at the same time GMT and eight hours later start a duty day, is the one who woke up in YVR and took a flight to YYZ more fatigued than the one who woke up in YYZ? Other than the requirement to be rested, how could the union or the company dictate what we do on our time off?
Agreed they can't control what you do on your own time but I'm just pointing out that D/H'ing and commuting are exactly the same, both are usually in uniform so I can't tell the difference at all, but somehow ALPA/ACPA supports that one is safe to do a HAV or LAX turn and one is not. :smt102
---------- ADS -----------
 
Big Pistons Forever
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5379
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: West Coast

Re: Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

The bottom line is explained in AC700-42

Employer Responsibility:

CAR 700.21(1) – Air Operator Obligations — Scheduling
(1) Requires that a flight crew member be provided with his or her schedule sufficiently in advance
for the flight crew member to plan for adequate rest.
(2) If the air operator is unable to provide the schedule sufficiently in advance, they can choose to
use the “flight crew member on reserve” (CAR 700.70) or “flight crew member on standby” (CAR
700.71) provisions as long as all requirements of these alternatives are followed.
(3) This subsection requires advanced notification that will permit the flight crew member to plan for
and obtain adequate rest.
(4) Being able to obtain at least one local night rest prior to the flight duty could meet this
requirement, if the situation permits. For example, if the flight crew member reported for a flight
duty period at 07:00 and then at 15:00 they are informed that the next day the reporting time will
be 07:00. Assuming that the established sleep/wake cycle is not being disturbed and the required
rest period can be obtained, this would be reasonable. However in the same situation, if the
reporting time the next day will be 03:00 and the flight crew member is being informed at 15:00,
this would not meet the standard for ‘sufficiently in advance’.
(5) For example:
(a) If no part of the of the planned flight duty period occurs during the flight crew member’s
window of circadian low, 12 hours’ notice before the beginning of the flight duty period; or
(b) If any part of the planned flight duty period occurs during the flight crew member’s
window of circadian low, 32 hours’ notice before the beginning of the flight duty period.


Pilot Responsibility:

CAR 602.02 – Fitness of Flight crew members
(1) Prohibits an operator from requiring that any person act as a flight crew member or carry out a
preflight duty, if the operator or the person believes that they are not, or are not likely to be, fit for
duty.
(2) If for any reason a person believes that they are not, or are not likely to be, fit for duty, then they
shall not act as a flight crew member nor carry out preflight duties – nor be assigned by the air
operator to these duties.
(3) This applies broadly to performance impairments caused by: fatigue (i.e., too tired or likely to be
too tired during the flight duty period in question), alcohol (i.e., under the influence or consuming
alcohol within 12 hours of a flight duty period), drugs (e.g., legal, prescription, over-the-counter or
illegal drugs) and mental, or physical condition (e.g., having a broken arm and not being able to
manipulate the controls).

I would advise against reading between the lines. From a pilots POV it is completely up to you to ensure you show up for work properly rested, full stop.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3336
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Commuting, Acclimatization and new Flight Duty Regs

Post by digits_ »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:03 am
I would advise against reading between the lines. From a pilots POV it is completely up to you to ensure you show up for work properly rested, full stop.
I agree, but the interesting discussion is not about "does the pilot have to show up rested", but, "does he have to show up acclimatised to his home base". The rules don't seem to require that, but they do seem to put emphasis on the importance of being acclimatised to a certain timezone.

It's most likely to a lot of pilot's advantage this is not specified, as otherwise a lot of commuting policies would be cancelled. But you do have to admit it is an interesting situation created by the new regs.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Post Reply

Return to “General Airline Industry Comments”