What is going on with recalls in Canada?

[puckerpower]

I can not be the only one that is confused about how the airlines in Canada are handling their post Covid-19 recovery's. Initially Canada was in lock step with the Americans, parking planes and laying off staff working under premise of a three to five year recovery to get back to 2019 demand. Based on every previous economic downturn 2008, 2001 and on down the line this forecast made sense. No one truly could have anticipated how Covid-19 would affect the economy, just look how the Bank of Canada failed with the Canadian housing market. Little fault can laid on the airlines for their initial response to demand evaporating seemingly in an instant. Overnight layoffs were executed with surgical precision to slow cash burn to the point were they could stay in hibernation and survive long enough to outlast the pandemic. The measures taken were as heartless and as cruel as the virus that necessitated them, however, even the most socialist among us could not argue that they were not necessary.

The Canadian Governments response to the pandemics effects on the airlines is a source of limitless debate leading nowhere. A pandemic is going to shutdown travel no matter who has the majority of seats in the house of commons. The airlines got their bailout if they wanted one, no one went bankrupt and at the end of the day that is all that truly matters. So please no overly political nonsense, at this point it is all water under the bridge.

What truly matters is that Canada is very quickly being vaccinated and will be fully vaccinated for the winter travel season. However, airlines in Canada do not appear to be preparing for the flood of bookings they will no doubt receive the moment travel restrictions are removed. One does not need a crystal ball or a brilliantly accurate forecast to see what will happen shortly in Canada. We need only look to America for the proof that travel demand will rapidly return. The worst economic effects have been adverted by the worlds central banks leaving billions in Canadian’s savings accounts. Combine this with the average Canadians desperation to go on vacation and you have a recovery on par with America. Some may argue that the American recovery is just domestic, however, international borders will quickly open. It is already happening, the EU has opened its borders to American travellers (https://www.npr.org/2021/06/18/10081876 ... everywhere). The world is more dependent on tourism than it cares to admit and economics will quickly drive the removal of international travel restrictions.

Boeing has revised its forecasts as well. “Speaking on 3 June, CEO David Calhoun also says global vaccination campaigns could enable international air travel to recover to near-2019 levels by the end of 2022” (https://www.flightglobal.com/networks/u ... 17.article).

All major US Airlines have called back their pilots on layoff and have started hiring again (https://www.businessinsider.com/covid-p ... age-2021-6). I understand that more US pilots took early retirement than Canadian pilots did, however, people still retired in Canada without being replaced.

Then there is the perennial argument that business travel will never return to 2019 levels because of zoom and other internet based business solutions. This is unlikely because the technology to replace business travel has existed for at least ten years, yet people continued to traveller for business despite it not being a necessity. To aid this argument, “Delta Air Lines Inc. expects U.S. corporations to reopen for business no later than Labor Day and resume domestic travel at levels from before the pandemic by July of next year” (https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/delta-ceo-s ... -1.1612325).

To sum up a forecast of 75% of 2019 levels not occurring until the spring of 2023 can not possibly be correct. The mostly likely scenario resulting from delaying recalls will be a massive training backlog and cancelled flights this winter.

[cxchd]

With this inept government of uneducated buffoons running things, don't count on it. We've surpassed all their targets and still the asshole in charge is not opening the border. And when things do pick up and our airlines can't spool up, the Americans will reap the rewards. Trudeau has fucked this up so badly, Canada will be left in the dust with the rest of the world. Can't wait for when he rolls out his Covid tax. You know it's coming.

[PostmasterGeneral]

With this inept government of uneducated buffoons running things, don't count on it. We've surpassed all their targets and still the asshole in charge is not opening the border. And when things do pick up and our airlines can't spool up, the Americans will reap the rewards. Trudeau has fucked this up so badly, Canada will be left in the dust with the rest of the world. Can't wait for when he rolls out his Covid tax. You know it's coming.

Very well said. I don't know what his deal is, maybe he gets off on pretending to be a dictator?

[newlygrounded]

With this inept government of uneducated buffoons running things, don't count on it. We've surpassed all their targets and still the asshole in charge is not opening the border. And when things do pick up and our airlines can't spool up, the Americans will reap the rewards. Trudeau has fucked this up so badly, Canada will be left in the dust with the rest of the world. Can't wait for when he rolls out his Covid tax. You know it's coming.

3 months ago the government were failures since we had a low vaccination rate, now we have the highest 1st shot rate in the world and we're still failures?

Keep moving the goal posts and you'll never be happy.

[Inverted2]

With this inept government of uneducated buffoons running things, don't count on it. We've surpassed all their targets and still the asshole in charge is not opening the border. And when things do pick up and our airlines can't spool up, the Americans will reap the rewards. Trudeau has fucked this up so badly, Canada will be left in the dust with the rest of the world. Can't wait for when he rolls out his Covid tax. You know it's coming.

3 months ago the government were failures since we had a low vaccination rate, now we have the highest 1st shot rate in the world and we're still failures?

Keep moving the goal posts and you'll never be happy.

Define success then. It’s the government that keeps moving the goal posts on us.

The dear leader was only in a hotel for 12 hrs when he got back from the UK. (They should have dumped him in the Atlantic) meanwhile you or I can’t drive across the border and if we fly we are still required to cough up thousands to stay 3 nights in a government approved hotel.

[Inverted2]

With this inept government of uneducated buffoons running things, don't count on it. We've surpassed all their targets and still the asshole in charge is not opening the border. And when things do pick up and our airlines can't spool up, the Americans will reap the rewards. Trudeau has fucked this up so badly, Canada will be left in the dust with the rest of the world. Can't wait for when he rolls out his Covid tax. You know it's coming.

Very well said. I don't know what his deal is, maybe he gets off on pretending to be a dictator?

He’s not even pretending anymore. That’s the scary part.

[puckerpower]

With this inept government of uneducated buffoons running things, don't count on it. We've surpassed all their targets and still the asshole in charge is not opening the border. And when things do pick up and our airlines can't spool up, the Americans will reap the rewards. Trudeau has fucked this up so badly, Canada will be left in the dust with the rest of the world. Can't wait for when he rolls out his Covid tax. You know it's coming.

Very well said. I don't know what his deal is, maybe he gets off on pretending to be a dictator?

He’s not even pretending anymore. That’s the scary part.

I have had enough with this right wing political nonsense. I specifically asked for nothing overly political, it is not helpful to Canadian pilots. The level of anti Justin Trudeau rhetoric these day has reached Fox News heights, which is quite frankly very sad. If your going to criticize a Government at least do it properly with a balanced and insightful critique not just right wing buzz words. Terms like “gets off”, “dictator”, and “dear leader” have no place in a constructive debate. Really “dear leader”, are you trying to say that Canada is a communist dictatorship?

No one would argue that The Government of Canada’s response to supporting the aviation industry during the pandemic has been good, however, it has been very far from the worst. Both AC and WJ did not go bankrupt and that is really important. Both airlines will eventually rehire all their laid off pilots and everyone's seniority number will be intact. Things could have been a lot worse if there was a bankruptcy. Good luck finding another airline job if your 55 years old and just got laid off due to a bankruptcy. No one would hire you and you would be in a lot worse spot than the people who are currently laid off.

I was really hoping for an educated discussion on the topic of why airlines do not appear to be preparing for the flood of travel that will begin this fall. The border with the US will open and international borders will open as well, there is no chance that they it will not. The economies of the world are to interconnected now and can not survive in isolation. By all evidence Europe is very dependant on tourist, not to mention Mexico and the Caribbean. Tourism is a vital part of any economy in the 21st century. Airlines in Canada have the some of largest numbers of pilots still laid off, not mention all the other critical employees like flight attendants that experienced much deeper cuts. This means that if demand returns quickly, Airlines in Canada will struggle to offer the capacity necessary to compete with the US. The Americans which are Canada’s direct competitors have already set the benchmark and rehired all their pilots. Airlines in Canada must match them if we hope to grow the aviation industry in this country.

[newlygrounded]

With this inept government of uneducated buffoons running things, don't count on it. We've surpassed all their targets and still the asshole in charge is not opening the border. And when things do pick up and our airlines can't spool up, the Americans will reap the rewards. Trudeau has fucked this up so badly, Canada will be left in the dust with the rest of the world. Can't wait for when he rolls out his Covid tax. You know it's coming.

3 months ago the government were failures since we had a low vaccination rate, now we have the highest 1st shot rate in the world and we're still failures?

Keep moving the goal posts and you'll never be happy.

Define success then. It’s the government that keeps moving the goal posts on us.

The dear leader was only in a hotel for 12 hrs when he got back from the UK. (They should have dumped him in the Atlantic) meanwhile you or I can’t drive across the border and if we fly we are still required to cough up thousands to stay 3 nights in a government approved hotel.

The government changes the restrictions as new variants and data come out.

And anyone who is essential is exempt from quarantine, if you were driving a delivery truck you'd be exempt as well.

[montado]

I have had enough with this right wing political nonsense...

I think the difference in America vs here is even the most left democratic politicians in America have said it’s time to get back to normal. Cuomo said if you don’t want a vaccine, tough shit, things are opening so the risk is on you.

The Trudeau approach is guilt everyone into a vaccine. He wants vaccine passports, he said yesterday even if you are vaccinated that you can spread covid and hurt other people (he is literally anti science at this point, basically saying vaccines aren’t enough to have an adequate level of safety). This is how he is currently justifying restrictions. Aviation won’t be busy here this winter. I have already heard political grumblings that school may not back in September because it won’t be safe if we can’t vaccinate under 12, and the variant and 4th wave we will get in the fall.

Trudeau has assessed what level of risk we should tolerate and makes the decision for us. Of course it sounds crazy to say school won’t go back in September, but just watch the goal posts keep moving. Sounded insane 6 months ago, 3 months ago it was crazy today it sound improbable, next month it will get debated, then it will be a maybe, followed by “surprise”.

Do you think it’s fair to the fully vaccinated to keep imposing any restrictions? Government is abusing its power. Ford just as much as Trudeau. They are all a dumpster fire. Many of us saw this coming 9 months ago. I was called crazy many times. Funny how the longer this goes on more people are scratching their heads acting surprised. Many were sold on fear and they bent over... “follow your sops” “I can’t believe a pilot who thinks logically won’t just follow the rules”.

We aren’t getting ready to carry 2019 levels of passengers because we won’t be at those levels. The government doesn’t want to lay out a plan for the plandemic to end. Meanwhile texas dropped mask mandates in March... no issues.

[puckerpower]

I have had enough with this right wing political nonsense...

I think the difference in America vs here is even the most left democratic politicians in America have said it’s time to get back to normal. Cuomo said if you don’t want a vaccine, tough shit, things are opening so the risk is on you.

The Trudeau approach is guilt everyone into a vaccine. He wants vaccine passports, he said yesterday even if you are vaccinated that you can spread covid and hurt other people (he is literally anti science at this point, basically saying vaccines aren’t enough to have an adequate level of safety). This is how he is currently justifying restrictions. Aviation won’t be busy here this winter. I have already heard political grumblings that school may not back in September because it won’t be safe if we can’t vaccinate under 12, and the variant and 4th wave we will get in the fall.

Trudeau has assessed what level of risk we should tolerate and makes the decision for us. Of course it sounds crazy to say school won’t go back in September, but just watch the goal posts keep moving. Sounded insane 6 months ago, 3 months ago it was crazy today it sound improbable, next month it will get debated, then it will be a maybe, followed by “surprise”.

Do you think it’s fair to the fully vaccinated to keep imposing any restrictions? Government is abusing its power. Ford just as much as Trudeau. They are all a dumpster fire. Many of us saw this coming 9 months ago. I was called crazy many times. Funny how the longer this goes on more people are scratching their heads acting surprised. Many were sold on fear and they bent over... “follow your sops” “I can’t believe a pilot who thinks logically won’t just follow the rules”.

We aren’t getting ready to carry 2019 levels of passengers because we won’t be at those levels. The government doesn’t want to lay out a plan for the plandemic to end. Meanwhile texas dropped mask mandates in March... no issues.

You right wing folks are all the same, you love the idea that you are being persecuted. No one is building the Berlin Wall around Canada. Nobody is being forced to take a Covid-19 Vaccine, the schools will be open this fall, there is no plandemic and the US border will open sometime this summer. The Canadian Government is responsive to business and will not prolong the border closure for no reason. We all better hope there is no forth wave this winter because airlines will go bankrupt and all pilots will lose their jobs. Therefore I do not see the point of being so pessimistic.

[sullecpt]

You right wing folks are all the same, you love the idea that you are being persecuted.

Pretty arrogant to suggest someone is right wing because they simply view things differently then you. Its like you actually think you're better then someone else without knowing a thing about them. Even if they were right leaning voters, who are you to look down on them?? I'm a green party voter, and I support everything these so called ""right wingers" are saying in this convo. So what? I am not woke enough for you too? People need to have different ideas and conversations, and the best ideas always win in the end.

Canada is most definitely on the verge of communism with the way things are being run IMO. I dont understand how people can't see it. Maybe going to visit a communist country, or reading some history books will help connect the dots.

[montado]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/why-covi ... -1.6069831

Narrative shift, covid is now just like a cold.

Let's all jump on this waggon so we can move on with our lives.

Of course comparing covid to the flu two months ago was misinformation, but now cbc says it's acceptable to just call it a cold, so it's okay now folks you can say it.

[Inverted2]

You right wing folks are all the same, you love the idea that you are being persecuted.

Pretty arrogant to suggest someone is right wing because they simply view things differently then you. Its like you actually think you're better then someone else without knowing a thing about them. Even if they were right leaning voters, who are you to look down on them?? I'm a green party voter, and I support everything these so called ""right wingers" are saying in this convo. So what? I am not woke enough for you too? People need to have different ideas and conversations, and the best ideas always win in the end.

Canada is most definitely on the verge of communism with the way things are being run IMO. I dont understand how people can't see it. Maybe going to visit a communist country, or reading some history books will help connect the dots.

That’s how the left operates. Disagree with their views and they throw tantrums and accuse you of being racist, right wing trump supporter etc.

[Inverted2]

Very well said. I don't know what his deal is, maybe he gets off on pretending to be a dictator?

He’s not even pretending anymore. That’s the scary part.

I have had enough with this right wing political nonsense. I specifically asked for nothing overly political, it is not helpful to Canadian pilots. The level of anti Justin Trudeau rhetoric these day has reached Fox News heights, which is quite frankly very sad. If your going to criticize a Government at least do it properly with a balanced and insightful critique not just right wing buzz words. Terms like “gets off”, “dictator”, and “dear leader” have no place in a constructive debate. Really “dear leader”, are you trying to say that Canada is a communist dictatorship?

No one would argue that The Government of Canada’s response to supporting the aviation industry during the pandemic has been good, however, it has been very far from the worst. Both AC and WJ did not go bankrupt and that is really important. Both airlines will eventually rehire all their laid off pilots and everyone's seniority number will be intact. Things could have been a lot worse if there was a bankruptcy. Good luck finding another airline job if your 55 years old and just got laid off due to a bankruptcy. No one would hire you and you would be in a lot worse spot than the people who are currently laid off.

I was really hoping for an educated discussion on the topic of why airlines do not appear to be preparing for the flood of travel that will begin this fall. The border with the US will open and international borders will open as well, there is no chance that they it will not. The economies of the world are to interconnected now and can not survive in isolation. By all evidence Europe is very dependant on tourist, not to mention Mexico and the Caribbean. Tourism is a vital part of any economy in the 21st century. Airlines in Canada have the some of largest numbers of pilots still laid off, not mention all the other critical employees like flight attendants that experienced much deeper cuts. This means that if demand returns quickly, Airlines in Canada will struggle to offer the capacity necessary to compete with the US. The Americans which are Canada’s direct competitors have already set the benchmark and rehired all their pilots. Airlines in Canada must match them if we hope to grow the aviation industry in this country.

You’ve had enough? You’ve only been on this forum for a month and have 4 posts. Do you actually work for an airline and experienced any hardships from the past 18 months of the scamdemic?

[fish4life]

I think the airlines are gun shy in Canada because of the way the Canadian government keeps changing the rules and with the latest border closure extension they are now going against their own advisory panel of experts on border reopening to vaccinated travellers.

Back in December thing were starting to look good and airlines were adding capacity only to have the government introduced quarantine hotels.

[complexintentions]

Very well said. I don't know what his deal is, maybe he gets off on pretending to be a dictator?

He’s not even pretending anymore. That’s the scary part.

I have had enough with this right wing political nonsense. I specifically asked for nothing overly political, it is not helpful to Canadian pilots. The level of anti Justin Trudeau rhetoric these day has reached Fox News heights, which is quite frankly very sad. If your going to criticize a Government at least do it properly with a balanced and insightful critique not just right wing buzz words. Terms like “gets off”, “dictator”, and “dear leader” have no place in a constructive debate. Really “dear leader”, are you trying to say that Canada is a communist dictatorship?

No one would argue that The Government of Canada’s response to supporting the aviation industry during the pandemic has been good, however, it has been very far from the worst. Both AC and WJ did not go bankrupt and that is really important. Both airlines will eventually rehire all their laid off pilots and everyone's seniority number will be intact. Things could have been a lot worse if there was a bankruptcy. Good luck finding another airline job if your 55 years old and just got laid off due to a bankruptcy. No one would hire you and you would be in a lot worse spot than the people who are currently laid off.

I was really hoping for an educated discussion on the topic of why airlines do not appear to be preparing for the flood of travel that will begin this fall. The border with the US will open and international borders will open as well, there is no chance that they it will not. The economies of the world are to interconnected now and can not survive in isolation. By all evidence Europe is very dependant on tourist, not to mention Mexico and the Caribbean. Tourism is a vital part of any economy in the 21st century. Airlines in Canada have the some of largest numbers of pilots still laid off, not mention all the other critical employees like flight attendants that experienced much deeper cuts. This means that if demand returns quickly, Airlines in Canada will struggle to offer the capacity necessary to compete with the US. The Americans which are Canada’s direct competitors have already set the benchmark and rehired all their pilots. Airlines in Canada must match them if we hope to grow the aviation industry in this country.

I am no fan of rhetorical nonsense as anyone who reads my comments know. But the lack of democratic function that has occurred in Canada under the Liberals during the pandemic should alarm anyone remotely sentient. The shutdown of Parliament, the lack of accountability, the passing of bills while "no one is looking" without proper debate. Granted, the Opposition parties are complicit as well, they've pretty much been silent. The whole thing is shameful. And the electorate by and large doesn't care, as long as they keep getting (borrowed) money shovelled down their throats.

All this to say, it is not completely over the top to make comparisons to a dictatorship. If you can show me examples where Trudeau has been held to account, I'm all ears. But the facts speak for themselves: the projected debt is forecast to hit 1.5 trillion dollars by 2030. And more than half of all Canadian national debt has been accrued by two Trudeaus, father and son. Happy Father's Day!

And no, this isn't right-wing ranting calling for austerity during a pandemic or similar nonsense. It's the massive, unprecedented structural spending they're quietly adding that should be a worry. At least to the portion of the population that still pay taxes.

Canadian passenger airlines are screwed. Period.

[Old fella]

What some or indeed many fail to realize or choose to ignore is the power of the ass hole Provinces and their silly fucking Premiers during this pandemic times. One has to look no further that the current ongoing shit show here in Atlantic Canada, what a fucking disgrace.

[montado]

https://www.hartgroup.org/covid-19-is-b ... more-mild/

Just another article that says covid is just a cold now.

Its like magic. First scare the shit out of everyone with fear... Now unwind that fear. The only way back to normal now is to say "ah it's just a cold"

[rudder]

The problem with Trudope (and others) is the fear of the return to normal.

Just look at the US. Under-vaccinated but (mostly) back to normal. Hospitalizations low. Daily death count low.

The politicians and health agencies have become accustomed to being the masters of our daily routines. That must end.

[Julian.B]

You right wing folks are all the same, you love the idea that you are being persecuted. No one is building the Berlin Wall around Canada. Nobody is being forced to take a Covid-19 Vaccine, the schools will be open this fall, there is no plandemic and the US border will open sometime this summer. The Canadian Government is responsive to business and will not prolong the border closure for no reason. We all better hope there is no forth wave this winter because airlines will go bankrupt and all pilots will lose their jobs. Therefore I do not see the point of being so pessimistic.

You are one special kind of imbecile, and so is everyone else that still thinks Justin Trudeau is fit to be Prime Minister of Canada. The abuses that Canadians were subjected to because of these draconian restrictions are beyond comprehension. This is something out of a 3rd world horror movie plot. You may not have been affected like the thousands of Canadians that have relatives abroad that were ill or dying and they could not afford to go there, because coming back, isolating in a hotel and then home for 2 weeks would be financially crippling. I have a very close friend that couldn't go bury his mother, because he could not afford the 2 weeks of not working and the $3000 hotel bill.

That's one of many examples, which an idiot like yourself, could never comprehend. So take your "left wing" bulls**t and **** right off!

I'll stop here before I get banned!