Flair Receivership

[Inverted2]

Even if they make $100 profit on a seat and there are 160ish seats(?) that is only $16000. I don't know how any airline would make any money on that, especially with YYZ landing fees, NAV Canada fees, aircraft leasing costs etc. Fuel isn't free either. 6000lbs/hr on a 3 hour flight would be 10229 litres. I have no idea what airlines pay for a litre of jet fuel.

I don't know how they do it. I hope Flair does ok though.

[flying4dollars]

Even if they make $100 profit on a seat and there are 160ish seats(?) that is only $16000. I don't know how any airline would make any money on that, especially with YYZ landing fees, NAV Canada fees, aircraft leasing costs etc. Fuel isn't free either. 6000lbs/hr on a 3 hour flight would be 10229 litres. I have no idea what airlines pay for a litre of jet fuel.

I don't know how they do it. I hope Flair does ok though.

189 seats. I don't know what the profit margins are to be honest, but I know it's not $100 per seat. I'd say $10-20 per seat. Let's say it's $10. With 189 seats and 35 sectors on a given day, that's a total profit of $66,150 for the day or just under $2M for the month if the flights were ALWAYS full. Let's use a current average of 100 seats sold. That's $35,000 for the day or $1M for the month. Remember that's profit, after expenses. Total revenue will be higher but revenue doesn't include expenses. This number will grow as loads continue to increase, combined with additional routes, tails and sectors. Airline margins are very thin, especially for legacy carriers with legacy costs. Unless I missed something in that break down, it's not a bad start if you ask me.

[acpaleaks]

Even if they make $100 profit on a seat and there are 160ish seats(?) that is only $16000. I don't know how any airline would make any money on that, especially with YYZ landing fees, NAV Canada fees, aircraft leasing costs etc. Fuel isn't free either. 6000lbs/hr on a 3 hour flight would be 10229 litres. I have no idea what airlines pay for a litre of jet fuel.

I don't know how they do it. I hope Flair does ok though.

$100 profit is a lot. Does AC even make that much? Looking at the ticket break downs, so much of it is taxes and fees. What's left is then divvied up though leasing costs, fuel costs, crew, real estate, other employee salary etc. AC and WJ make their money on volume.

[BTD]

It’s not profit if you have to use it for expenses etc.

[boeingboy]

Even if they make $100 profit on a seat and there are 160ish seats(?) that is only $16000. I don't know how any airline would make any money on that, especially with YYZ landing fees, NAV Canada fees, aircraft leasing costs etc. Fuel isn't free either. 6000lbs/hr on a 3 hour flight would be 10229 litres. I have no idea what airlines pay for a litre of jet fuel.

I don't know how they do it. I hope Flair does ok though.

189 seats. I don't know what the profit margins are to be honest, but I know it's not $100 per seat. I'd say $10-20 per seat. Let's say it's $10. With 189 seats and 35 sectors on a given day, that's a total profit of $66,150 for the day or just under $2M for the month if the flights were ALWAYS full. Let's use a current average of 100 seats sold. That's $35,000 for the day or $1M for the month. Remember that's profit, after expenses. Total revenue will be higher but revenue doesn't include expenses. This number will grow as loads continue to increase, combined with additional routes, tails and sectors. Airline margins are very thin, especially for legacy carriers with legacy costs. Unless I missed something in that break down, it's not a bad start if you ask me.

LOL! OK......if your grade 6 math was reality - there wouldn't be an airline anywhere that couldn't turn a healthy profit!

Yea - you missed a lot. For one - you do know that you cant use a fixed scale for cost? By your math - you simply could sell 10 seats and still make a profit of $10,500 for the month! Everyone here knows you cant make any money by only selling 10 seats on a 737.

The average cost of a 737 Max is in the neighborhood of $3700 USD per block hour. 35 sectors divided by 8 aircraft is (rounded off) 4 sectors. Lets be generous and average 5 block hours per sector. $3700 (per block hour) x 20 (block hours) x 30 (days) = $2,200,000 USD per month just for the aircraft. And you have 8 aircraft.

Lets break that down even more......4 (sectors a day) x 100 (your stated average seat sell) x 30 = 12,000 seats per month meaning that (after conversion) those 100 seats would each have to sell for $235.00 cad just for the aircraft to break even. Now add in the government taxes, Nav Canada fees, airport fees, contract fees, operating expenses for the company, interest on loans, plus a little profit and you need to charge about $500 per seat (based on 100 seats)

There are a lot of variables in there that could easily drive that cost up. Usually airlines need about a 60% load factor to break even (113 seats = about $470 per seat), and I suspect that Flairs block hour cost is a little higher than stated. I don't think your making $1 million profit a month.

[flying4dollars]

Even if they make $100 profit on a seat and there are 160ish seats(?) that is only $16000. I don't know how any airline would make any money on that, especially with YYZ landing fees, NAV Canada fees, aircraft leasing costs etc. Fuel isn't free either. 6000lbs/hr on a 3 hour flight would be 10229 litres. I have no idea what airlines pay for a litre of jet fuel.

I don't know how they do it. I hope Flair does ok though.

189 seats. I don't know what the profit margins are to be honest, but I know it's not $100 per seat. I'd say $10-20 per seat. Let's say it's $10. With 189 seats and 35 sectors on a given day, that's a total profit of $66,150 for the day or just under $2M for the month if the flights were ALWAYS full. Let's use a current average of 100 seats sold. That's $35,000 for the day or $1M for the month. Remember that's profit, after expenses. Total revenue will be higher but revenue doesn't include expenses. This number will grow as loads continue to increase, combined with additional routes, tails and sectors. Airline margins are very thin, especially for legacy carriers with legacy costs. Unless I missed something in that break down, it's not a bad start if you ask me.

LOL! OK......if your grade 6 math was reality - there wouldn't be an airline anywhere that couldn't turn a healthy profit!

Yea - you missed a lot. For one - you do know that you cant use a fixed scale for cost? By your math - you simply could sell 10 seats and still make a profit of $10,500 for the month! Everyone here knows you cant make any money by only selling 10 seats on a 737.

The average cost of a 737 Max is in the neighborhood of $3700 USD per block hour. 35 sectors divided by 8 aircraft is (rounded off) 4 sectors. Lets be generous and average 5 block hours per sector. $3700 (per block hour) x 20 (block hours) x 30 (days) = $2,200,000 USD per month just for the aircraft. And you have 8 aircraft.

Lets break that down even more......4 (sectors a day) x 100 (your stated average seat sell) x 30 = 12,000 seats per month meaning that (after conversion) those 100 seats would each have to sell for $235.00 cad just for the aircraft to break even. Now add in the government taxes, Nav Canada fees, airport fees, contract fees, operating expenses for the company, interest on loans, plus a little profit and you need to charge about $500 per seat (based on 100 seats)

There are a lot of variables in there that could easily drive that cost up. Usually airlines need about a 60% load factor to break even (113 seats = about $470 per seat), and I suspect that Flairs block hour cost is a little higher than stated. I don't think your making $1 million profit a month.

Hmm yup, you got me there.

[co-joe]

Even if they make $100 profit on a seat and there are 160ish seats(?) that is only $16000. I don't know how any airline would make any money on that, especially with YYZ landing fees, NAV Canada fees, aircraft leasing costs etc. Fuel isn't free either. 6000lbs/hr on a 3 hour flight would be 10229 litres. I have no idea what airlines pay for a litre of jet fuel.

I don't know how they do it. I hope Flair does ok though.

Whoever told you a Max burns 6000 lbs per hour lied to you. The NG doesn't even burn that and the Max burns 15% less than the NG.

[alkaseltzer]

Even if they make $100 profit on a seat and there are 160ish seats(?) that is only $16000. I don't know how any airline would make any money on that, especially with YYZ landing fees, NAV Canada fees, aircraft leasing costs etc. Fuel isn't free either. 6000lbs/hr on a 3 hour flight would be 10229 litres. I have no idea what airlines pay for a litre of jet fuel.

I don't know how they do it. I hope Flair does ok though.

Whoever told you a Max burns 6000 lbs per hour lied to you. The NG doesn't even burn that and the Max burns 15% less than the NG.

Lbs not kg

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

Even if they make $100 profit on a seat and there are 160ish seats(?) that is only $16000. I don't know how any airline would make any money on that, especially with YYZ landing fees, NAV Canada fees, aircraft leasing costs etc. Fuel isn't free either. 6000lbs/hr on a 3 hour flight would be 10229 litres. I have no idea what airlines pay for a litre of jet fuel.

I don't know how they do it. I hope Flair does ok though.

Whoever told you a Max burns 6000 lbs per hour lied to you. The NG doesn't even burn that and the Max burns 15% less than the NG.

Lbs not kg

737-800 burns roughly 5500 lbs/hr in cruise. Obviously that number can vary based on conditions.

[co-joe]

Whoever told you a Max burns 6000 lbs per hour lied to you. The NG doesn't even burn that and the Max burns 15% less than the NG.

Lbs not kg

737-800 burns roughly 5500 lbs/hr in cruise. Obviously that number can vary based on conditions.

What are you setting for cost index? Ours don't burn near that much. Cost index of 300 or something?

[tbaylx]

Lbs not kg

737-800 burns roughly 5500 lbs/hr in cruise. Obviously that number can vary based on conditions.

What are you setting for cost index? Ours don't burn near that much. Cost index of 300 or something?

You should come talk to all the 737 operators then and let us know how you're doing it.

800's burn around 1200-1300kg/hr per engine at cruise. That's right about 5500-5700 lbs/hour for both engines for those that still use imperial.

The Max is down around 850-1000kg/hr depending on altitude and weight (4400 lbs/hr)

[Jumbo744]

It's always great to log into avcanada and read how pilots are experts at running an airline. you guys would do a much better job right?

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

It's always great to log into avcanada and read how pilots are experts at running an airline. you guys would do a much better job right?

I would do an amazing job running an airline...



















...into the ground.

[co-joe]

Why is the title of this thread Flair Receivership?

The OP is a Westjetter and wants anyone who googles Flair Receivership to get a hit on their search. We could start a Westjet Bankrupt thread and play the same childish game but we have more class than that.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

Why is the title of this thread Flair Receivership?

The OP is a Westjetter and wants anyone who googles Flair Receivership to get a hit on their search. We could start a Westjet Bankrupt thread and play the same childish game but we have more class than that.

Sure, but it wouldn't have the same plausibility behind it.

WJ just announced that it rejected federal loans and a day later announced 100+ recalls at mainline and another 100+ at Encore.

[FurHat]

Why is the title of this thread Flair Receivership?

The OP is a Westjetter and wants anyone who googles Flair Receivership to get a hit on their search. We could start a Westjet Bankrupt thread and play the same childish game but we have more class than that.

If you google "Flair Receivership" you get the article the OP posted. It quotes a shareholder alleging Flair will be forced into receivership if they don't proceed with leases and expansion desired by 777 Partners. Blame Prescott Strategic Investments for the connection.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

Bumped to annoy the people who don't want us talking about Flair...

[co-joe]

Speaking of childish trolls...there's one.

[Jack Klumpus]

$100/seat profit???

Try $2-3 bucks.

Ryanair, the most profitable airline (pre-covid), made around $7/seat.

Whereas, and iPhone has $147 profit per unit.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

Speaking of childish trolls...there's one.

I'm proud of my ability.