Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

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photofly
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by photofly »

PeterParker wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:10 amSomehow the majors seem to have a “holier than thou” reaction to this.
It's not the airline- the airline couldn't care less about seniority. It's the pilots themselves who demand it. And the reason they do is because there are sooo many people that want to be pilots, if there was open competition the floor would drop out from under pilot salaries.

VPs: business executives are able to present themselves as distinguishable one from the other, and each having individiual skills. So they can compete on that basis, for conditions and salary. if you want a particular executive, you have to pay her to come and work for you. Pilots are all the same. No airline cares whether it's pilot A or pilot B flying for them.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by yowflyer23 »

photofly wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:06 am
yowflyer23 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:51 am I really wish we had something like that in Canada though.
Pilots themselves created the seniority system through their unions. Airlines couldn't give a pussy how they find pilots, as long as they pay them as little as possible.

I guarantee you OT's are paid a market rate, based on the number of applications for each position (not very many). If pilots were paid market rates even the WB captains would be working at McDs on sundays. The only thing that hold your wages up are the artificial barriers that pilots themselves have created and in whose interests they exist. Airline management would *love* to have open competition for pilot roles, believe me.
I don't follow. Essentially this would be one giant union for all pilots who graduate with a CPL. If your proposed scenario were to occur and all wages were slashed across the board to McDonalds wages, nobody would get into flying after paying 60-100k to partake in this career. Most people are comfortable dishing out that money because they can see that they will eventually get a decent ROI on that investment, even if it means several years of crappy conditions. The means justifies the ends. Our market rate is much higher than you think. I can imagine that it would possibly mean a pay cut for some (i.e. year 12 777 Captains), but it would definitely result in a significant raise for the majority of CPL holders. If we all had the same salary in Canada, we could also start benchmarking against US/Overseas airline pilot wages. We aren't worth nothing. Until AI inevitably replaces us, we have significant value in the overall operation of airlines/commercial operators.
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Mostly Harmless
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by Mostly Harmless »

yowflyer23 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:51 am I know it's not a popular opinion to have that you're communicating here, but I agree with what you're saying.

There was a movement before that fizzled out to start a college of professional pilots where we are all seen as equals. I'm dating an occupational therapist and I envy how she can work at a company for 10 years and then switch companies and get equal or better pay and vacation, benefits, etc. Her industry values experience/skill, not how long you've spent at one company. Difference is that she is a member of a professional college and there is no First Officer Therapists and Captain Therapists. For a similar thing to work for pilots and to eliminate the perceived "unfairness" that occurs when a DEC takes a spot from a company FO, we would all need to be labelled as simply 'Pilots' and have one common pay scale. The left vs right seat and how many bars you have on your shoulders would need to NOT matter. Kind of like how it works at some corporate outfits where everyone is a captain.

I really wish we had something like that in Canada though. Seniority still has its place like during layoffs, but imagine the freedom you would have of picking and choosing the quality of life that you want. You live in Toronto working for AC and want to move to Calgary without having to commute? Imagine being able to move over to Westjet and continue being paid what you make at AC. Similarly, for someone who's been working in the bush or in corporate for 10 years and wants to make the switch to 705 but can't swallow the pay cut, or vice versa (i.e. working for big red but longing for the days of fun flying up north with no autopilot, but can't take the QOL/pay cut), those issues would cease to exist. I wish we could all put our ego's behind us and work together for something like that.
My goodness, I have really opened a can of worms with this one. :)

Personally, I don't care which side of the aircraft I sit on or how many bars I have on. I do care about the money. I will always pursue the highest paycheque, followed by balancing life/work (schedule). The formula looks like this, Most Money/Least Days Worked.

To do this would be great but you would have to completely dismantle the entire compensation and hiring structure of the current airline system. It would be interesting to see all pilots, not employed by airline A or B, but employed by Union A... then airline A and B calls Union A and says, "We need X number of pilots" and the union places the people in those spots based on lifetime seniority. Airline A and B pay Union A the wages and Union A pays the pilots. It will never happen because the HR people wouldn't have control of who they get, and the companies sure as hell wouldn't give up that kind of control to a third party they don't control.
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yowflyer23
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by yowflyer23 »

Mostly Harmless wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:34 am My goodness, I have really opened a can of worms with this one. :)

Personally, I don't care which side of the aircraft I sit on or how many bars I have on. I do care about the money. I will always pursue the highest paycheque, followed by balancing life/work (schedule). The formula looks like this, Most Money/Least Days Worked.

To do this would be great but you would have to completely dismantle the entire compensation and hiring structure of the current airline system. It would be interesting to see all pilots, not employed by airline A or B, but employed by Union A... then airline A and B calls Union A and says, "We need X number of pilots" and the union places the people in those spots based on lifetime seniority. Airline A and B pay Union A the wages and Union A pays the pilots. It will never happen because the HR people wouldn't have control of who they get, and the companies sure as hell wouldn't give up that kind of control to a third party they don't control.
Yeah that's the biggest obstacle. It would pull the rug out from under a century of tradition. I know it's a pipe dream, but it's fun to think about.
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Mostly Harmless
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by Mostly Harmless »

photofly wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:06 am Pilots themselves created the seniority system through their unions. Airlines couldn't give a pussy how they find pilots, as long as they pay them as little as possible.

I guarantee you OT's are paid a market rate, based on the number of applications for each position (not very many). If pilots were paid market rates even the WB captains would be working at McDs on sundays. The only thing that hold your wages up are the artificial barriers that pilots themselves have created and in whose interests they exist. Airline management would *love* to have open competition for pilot roles, believe me.
While true as recently as only a few years ago, I think management might be surprised if they had to actually pay market rates for pilots these days. If we had labour mobility the way the EU has labour mobility, Canadian carriers would have to pay rates that are paid in the US.... roughly double or more of the current rates, or they wouldn't be able to retain anyone. The US could absorb every Canadian pilot and we wouldn't be more than a drop in the ocean of pilots needed.
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rudder
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by rudder »

The only pilots that resent the seniority system are pilots that do not have seniority.

Also, pay progression is not simply based on upgrade (in either rank or equipment). It is also based on tenure.

Nobody arrives Day 1 as the highest paid pilot. It takes decades in the industry to achieve that milestone.
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photofly
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by photofly »

Mostly Harmless wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:39 am [

While true as recently as only a few years ago, I think management might be surprised if they had to actually pay market rates for pilots these days. If we had labour mobility the way the EU has labour mobility, Canadian carriers would have to pay rates that are paid in the US.... roughly double or more of the current rates, or they wouldn't be able to retain anyone. The US could absorb every Canadian pilot and we wouldn't be more than a drop in the ocean of pilots needed.
You will not be surprised to know that US pilots don't see it your way: they see the threat of a million Canadian pilots coming across the border pushing down their wages. They think you will push wages down; you think they will push wages up. You cannot both be correct. Given the number of wannabe Canadian pilots, I'm sure they are correct and you are not.

But - if free competition was so good for pilots, they are free to bargain for it. I'm sure they would have no resistance from airline management.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by yowflyer23 »

rudder wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:43 am The only pilots that resent the seniority system are pilots that do not have seniority.
You clearly haven't read the thread if that's the message that you got from this.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by Mostly Harmless »

photofly wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:43 am [You will not be surprised to know that US pilots don't see it your way: they see the threat of a million Canadian pilots coming across the border pushing down their wages. They think you will push wages down; you think they will push wages up. You cannot both be correct. Given the number of wannabe Canadian pilots, I'm sure they are correct and you are not.

But - if free competition was so good for pilots, they are free to bargain for it. I'm sure they would have no resistance from airline management.
1,000,000 Canadian pilots? One million, Canadian pilots? Are there one million Canadians currently holding ATPL's? I question that number. Are there one million Canadian pilots holding CPL's? I question that number.

You are speaking about US wages being pressured down, they wouldn't and they certainly don't seem to be worried about the growing contingent of Australian pilots working in the US. I, on the other hand, am speaking about Canadian wages being pushed upwards. So, in truth, both are absolutely possible.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by photofly »

Mostly Harmless wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:57 ammber.

You are speaking about US wages being pressured down, they wouldn't and they certainly don't seem to be worried about the growing contingent of Australian pilots working in the US.
On the contrary:

https://simpleflying.com/alpa-connect-airlines/
ALPA noted that Connect Airlines, by seeking to hire Canadian crew, could “hire crew at cheaper rates.” The benefit comes from airlines that reduced their workforce, leaving more pilots looking for jobs. This leads the union to claim that Connect Airlines is circumventing US pay scales and market competition forces by using Canadian labor.
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ALPA worries that this could lead to a wider-scale implementation of such business practices. It worries that it could lead other carriers to set up crew bases outside of the United States and bring them into the domestic market, thereby competing against US crew with higher wage structures, which could later undermine US wages and working conditions.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by digits_ »

rudder wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:43 am The only pilots that resent the seniority system are pilots that do not have seniority.

Also, pay progression is not simply based on upgrade (in either rank or equipment). It is also based on tenure.

Nobody arrives Day 1 as the highest paid pilot. It takes decades in the industry to achieve that milestone.
Correction, it takes decades at the same company to achieve that. That's the crux of the seniority discussion.


Seniority is good when you are starting out. It more or less guarantees you an upgrade and provides some protection against turning down unsafe flights.

When you have skills that are in demand, or when you have the experience to somewhat guarantee you a job, that is when seniority starts to suck.

Often the only factor between having 15 years of seniority or going back to 0 is nothing but pure luck.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by Mostly Harmless »

photofly wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:03 pm
Mostly Harmless wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:57 ammber.

You are speaking about US wages being pressured down, they wouldn't and they certainly don't seem to be worried about the growing contingent of Australian pilots working in the US.
On the contrary:

https://simpleflying.com/alpa-connect-airlines/
ALPA noted that Connect Airlines, by seeking to hire Canadian crew, could “hire crew at cheaper rates.” The benefit comes from airlines that reduced their workforce, leaving more pilots looking for jobs. This leads the union to claim that Connect Airlines is circumventing US pay scales and market competition forces by using Canadian labor.
.
.
.
ALPA worries that this could lead to a wider-scale implementation of such business practices. It worries that it could lead other carriers to set up crew bases outside of the United States and bring them into the domestic market, thereby competing against US crew with higher wage structures, which could later undermine US wages and working conditions.
So it's only those dirty Canadians who are an issue and not any of the other nation's pilots? What a horrible group of people those GWN's are.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by photofly »

Mostly Harmless wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:03 pm
So it's only those dirty Canadians who are an issue and not any of the other nation's pilots? What a horrible group of people those GWN's are.
Well, the article was specifically in response to and about an operator trying to set up in Canada to service the US market.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:43 am They think you will push wages down; you think they will push wages up. You cannot both be correct.
I think it's very likely both are correct. Canadian wages would increase a bit, and US wages would decrease a bit.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by tbaylx »

digits_ wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:47 pm
photofly wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:43 am They think you will push wages down; you think they will push wages up. You cannot both be correct.
I think it's very likely both are correct. Canadian wages would increase a bit, and US wages would decrease a bit.
There are roughly 10K to 15K ATPL rated pilots in Canada. United alone has over 15K pilots. Even if every single Canadian ATPl pilot went to the USA we'd not even move the needle on the nation's hiring. We'd have a very minimal effect on US wages but it would sure change the wages in Canada fast if even a quarter of those pilots left the Canadian industry.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by dhc# »

Wouldn't put it past the greasy CDN airline industry lobby to attempt to hinder a mass pilot exodus to the US (should the rules ever change).
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by altiplano »

Laws of supply and demand. It's a fact that more labour in the workforce drives down cost of labour. Absolutely the Americans don't want us there, that's just sound labour economics.

Anyway... everyone hired as an FO is hired with the idea that can do the job in the left seat too, if not immediately, very soon. There's no such thing as cream of the crop, there's just people that can do it, . Yeager wasn't an airline pilot.

AC DECs on the RJ was because right seat on the 320 paid better, and RP on the 340 even better than that, nobody already there wanted the seat... pay/lifestyle equation right there.

Many pilots are a slimy bunch who will step on one another for a nickel. Seniority protects us from one another as much as it protects us from the company. Look how much they whipsaw groups, groups within groups, Mainline vs. LWC vs. Regional and on and on.

It isn't perfect, but it's better than the alternative.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by rudder »

dhc# wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:43 am Wouldn't put it past the greasy CDN airline industry lobby to attempt to hinder a mass pilot exodus to the US (should the rules ever change).
The last decade that a CDN pilot could work in the US was the 1960’s. CP Air and AC/TCA were competing with UA/PAA/CAL and many others for pilots as rapid growth overtook the industry.

This is not a CDN issue. It is a US issue. And it is unlikely that the mobility of foreign pilots into US cockpits will be resuming anytime soon.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by altiplano »

rudder wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:21 am
dhc# wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:43 am Wouldn't put it past the greasy CDN airline industry lobby to attempt to hinder a mass pilot exodus to the US (should the rules ever change).
The last decade that a CDN pilot could work in the US was the 1960’s. CP Air and AC/TCA were competing with UA/PAA/CAL and many others for pilots as rapid growth overtook the industry.

This is not a CDN issue. It is a US issue. And it is unlikely that the mobility of foreign pilots into US cockpits will be resuming anytime soon.
Guys have told me stories about US Legacy Airline recruiters approaching you as you walked to parking in YYZ. I can't remember what year they said that was, and they were old but not so old to be speaking about the '60s... or maybe they were just recounting a story told to them by someone older than them.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by DanWEC »

I've been working on this as a side project. After some initial progress, we're getting more than a little stonewalled by the US. I'm fairly certain at this point that there's been a handshake agreement in place at the cabinet level specifically for pilots to prevent fluid movement to the US from Canada despite no official policy either way. I also wouldn't doubt that McKenna has had a hand in reinforcing it.
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