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laststandingpilot
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Hello Flair Pilots.

Post by laststandingpilot »

Hello Flair Pilots.
You are working for far less than industry standards. Would you like to unionize?
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Four1oh
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Post by Four1oh »

oh please, could they? After all, unions make EVERYTHING better!!!111 :roll:
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WING IT
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Post by WING IT »

PLEASE DO...unionize just like the guys at ACE! :smt064
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Three Holer
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Post by Three Holer »

Last standing,

You clearly have no clue what Flair Pilots are paid. Sounds like you should just worry about your own company and union.
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whipline
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Post by whipline »

Are they paid as much as the kelowna pilots?
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Pedro
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Post by Pedro »

hola laststandingpilot,

In my country, man get shot for talking like idiot. Or used as human piniata.

Pull your ugly head out of your fat ass and get a life. Stop saying shit people here don't want care about
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vote Pedro. peace out
laststandingpilot
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Post by laststandingpilot »

Well get this, Flair is owned and operated by Kelowna Flightcraft as an alter ego airline. I don’t know what they pay but I know the Flair pilots were offered a base in the Dominican republic at a 3 star resort and they would be paid 40$ a day per diem. Very sad in my opinion. They should Unionize!
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asdfasd
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Post by asdfasd »

1) This is not the type of pilot group which would benefit from unionizing. I believe LSP was poking at KFC management with the unionizing comments and not the actual pilots.

2) Also, ACE was having trouble for a long time. Their pilots were becoming organized but this did not squeeze ACE out of existence. ACE did not go under due to unions.

3) Not all unions are heavy hitters. Take us for example. We are half way through our current contract and we just gave large concessions for new work. Any time KFC management has come to us looking for something, we always discussed the situation and bent towards the maximum benefit of the company and pilots combined. At KFC we are not a heavy handed union, our union primarily keeps things organized and equal for all. Prior to the union different pilots received different treatment (everyone had their own special deal). Our union just levelled the working conditions for all.

4) With the heavy governmental lobbying of ATAC, Canadian pilots (unionized or not) need a voice of their own. Why change contracts when you can change the law and thus a more equal playing field for all carriers.
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MyWave
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Post by MyWave »

laststandingpilot wrote:Flair is owned and operated by Kelowna Flightcraft as an alter ego airline.
Interesting...

Just what IS an "alter ego airline?"
Is it an mild-mannered airline by day and a crime-fighting airline by night?

I'm curious.
Please provide an example or two.
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MyWave
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Post by MyWave »

<Crickets>



Yeah, that's what I thought.
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. .
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Post by . . »

Flair is owned by the same people that own KFC. Both companies fly the same planes. One company is unionized, one company isn't.

Clear as mud?
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MyWave
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Post by MyWave »

You crazy kids...

Flair is owned by the RETIRED General Manager of Flightcraft.

Retired, as in No Longer Affiliated With Flightcraft.
Can that be made any clearer?

He is running/operating Flair as, for want of a better term, a HOBBY.

If any of you Haters were ABLE to do the same thing, (ie. run your own little niche
airline with the support of your long-time business partner/friend ), you would.

Don't even try to deny it.

Flair is NO threat to the Flightcraft/Purolator situation.
They are SEPERATE companies who happen to fly the same type of aircraft and also use the same Dispatch
and Maintenance entities (...are you reading this, Endless?)

Ghod, get over it!
Be glad that there is another (little) company that is paying pilots to fly.

Who else wants to argue?
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prop2jet
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Post by prop2jet »

Are you kidding me? He is running an airline as a HOBBY??? Using KFC aircraft, KFC Maintenance and KCF Dispatch... and you are trying to say they are separate? Maybe on paper and in the legal sense they are, but don't for a minute suggest that there is never any backroom conversations taking place between the respective owners.
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laststandingpilot
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Post by laststandingpilot »

MyWave wrote:<Crickets>



Yeah, that's what I thought.

Alter ego (n): a second self, proxy, surrogate, stand-in, pinch hitter [coll.]

Alter ego airline (n): a proxy carrier utilizing a recognized brand airline code, per DOT requirements accompanied in schedule displays and ticketing notes by a "star" device and the disclaimer "Operated by ...[proxy carrier name]"


Alter Ego Airlines and Alliances: labor saving devices
Full-service Major airlines respond to the cost-side challenges of new-entrant and low-cost competition through rigorous cost controls, by simplifying product and process and, foremost, through the use of strategies which "average-down" labor costs. Despite what are at present robust industry profits, new demands by airline managers are expected to include changes to labor contracts that would permit the implementation of alter ego, mainline "star"-branded, domestic code-share alliance services, responsive to the proposed Northwest/Continental alliance. The alter ego concept is the latest in a series of post-deregulation labor strategies, and avoids the disadvantages of outright merger/acquisition.

How did alter ego evolve? We can thank DOT for creating the loophole, when they blessed non-owned commuter/regional code-sharing with the "star" device and "Operated by.." disclaimer. DOT then blew the loophole up to B747-size with approval of Northwest/KLM international code-sharing with anti-trust immunity to schedule and price as a single carrier. No matter that a noted airline CEO told Congress just recently that code-sharing is in effect a consumer fraud, and many question the consumer benefit in antitrust immunity. The trend is your friend; go with the "star", as in "Star Alliance". There's no looking back.

Why the sharp labor focus in these arrangements? First off, airlines are labor-intensive (and capital-intensive and energy-intensive; ego-intensive too, but that is the subject of another story). Of all expense components, Majors' labor costs represent upwards of 30% of overall operating expenses. This is in some cases twice the labor cost fraction of new-entrants. Labor costs are an easy target, providing the greatest competitive exposure. Moreover, labor costs have proven manageable, not so capital costs and fuel prices.

Major management accords a high priority to reducing labor costs because of its exposure on the one-hand, but chiefly because of past successes at achieving substantial savings this way. Witness the B-Scale. By the time it is extinguished, just past the turn of the millennium, it will have enjoyed at the Majors nearly a twenty-year, multi-billion dollar run.


Alter ego opportunities and threats

While generally targeting deeper-pocket cockpit crew expenses, work rules and scope restrictions in their attempts to introduce alter ego labor cost reduction devices, management fully understands that it incurs a minority of incremental costs in the cockpit. Only half are incurred on the aircraft at all, the rest being on the ground, where hourly pay rates do not scale with the aircraft being utilized and where the costs are relatively fixed and "chunky". On the other hand, concessions gained from pilots are understood to have a bow-wave effect on other labor groups.

Alter ego revenue opportunities are equally relevant. While any given customer will not pay significantly more to fly a brand name mainline carrier versus an alter ego brand, the mix of customers who will make this choice in favor of the mainline (or its endorsed brand) is a higher yielding group. This is what results in the Majors' "revenue premium". The end-consumer and travel agency markets, voting their preferences, still favor national brand carriers over others, if the flight is a jet and carries the major brand/alter ego "star" codes.

The availability of a low-cost, mainline-endorsed alter ego brand in the marketplace results in higher overall sales on the mainline and alter ego brand combined, more direct sales, higher travel agency sales hurdles and lower commission rates and overrides, a classic "win-win" deal. Alter ego network expansion and revenue opportunities create increasing returns and margins on what is essentially zero incremental capital investment and at no increased risk . It is significant that incremental revenue generated through an alter ego alliance causes revenue-related costs to decline, not only on the incremental revenue portion but back to the first dollar.

If the "up-side" of gaining access to alter ego domestic code sharing is attractive, the "down-side" of being locked out is clearly worthy of avoidance. Management's concern is that the emergence of larger, competing networks of code-share service causes more service-seeking, "top tier", elite frequent flyer customers to gravitate to the largest networks. This would deprive the Big Three carriers of some of their revenue premium, because they cannot within present scope limitations offer the larger, competitive network hoped-for by Northwest/Continental.

Therefore, for both revenue retention and cost reduction reasons, management hints they need an alter ego operation, domestic code-sharing and other composite labor cost reduction and revenue enhancement devices. With clear evidence of pattern bargaining, parallel thinking, and innovators that they are, management may devise an even more creative definition or concept for "synthetic" service. Failing elegant solutions, the finite number of ideal partners and the end game that results may eventually drive carriers back to outright acquisitions.
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MyWave
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Post by MyWave »

prop2jet wrote:Are you kidding me? He is running an airline as a HOBBY??? Using KFC aircraft, KFC Maintenance and KCF Dispatch... and you are trying to say they are separate? Maybe on paper and in the legal sense they are, but don't for a minute suggest that there is never any backroom conversations taking place between the respective owners.
I said, "for lack of a better term, a hobby".

He's retired, dude. You don't just turn it all off when you head out the door.

In any case, people should be less concerned about Flair and more concerned about Flightcraft. Say what you will,
Flightcraft is an attractive target.
BL is getting up there, what's going to happen when HE goes?

Sell the company to LeBlanc? Beddoe? The dude from Canada 3000? All the unions in the world won't help with those
guys at the helm.

laststandingpilot: Thanks for info. Wish you'd cited your source, though. It looks like you pasted from ALPA?
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laststandingpilot
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Post by laststandingpilot »

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asdfasd
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Post by asdfasd »

Yes the Flair issue is a bit of a sore spot with our pilots. Mainly so because you think you have gone the extra mile to make things work, reliable and profitable, and then this happens. Over all, I think KFC management is a very fair bunch. Yes, we all get our backs up when we’re told we will be working longer days but that’s business. I can understand why they would want Flair; moving pilots from base to base, flying to the cars maximum then not at all for a while, always changing operations, it all gets very expensive within our collective agreement. I just wish we had the opportunity to discuss it first as I’m sure we could have come to an agreement to make this all work without dividing the company into my perceived two.

Like any company there are areas which could be improved but over all it’s a pretty good place to be. The pay is ok, its secure employment and the most common problem we face with regards to maintenance is a burnt out light bulb. If you’re a pilot looking for work, we are hiring (mainly YHM based).
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natureboy
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Post by natureboy »

[quote="KFCpilot"]

2) Also, ACE was having trouble for a long time. Their pilots were becoming organized but this did not squeeze ACE out of existence. ACE did not go under due to unions.

Yes it did actually. The company couldn't fly with the DC10's and make a profit at first with all the restrictions the union had with the pilots. Knowing this the company was run into the ground because of the pilots inability to bend a bit till everthing got on track. The union killed ACE and if Flair tries this they will suffer the same fate!
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MyWave
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Post by MyWave »

laststandingpilot wrote:Rumour has it, Editted, editted & editted had supper with an ex (retired) KFC pilot to offer him a training job when flair began operations. Editted said we will offer you this much money and the retired guy said no thanks. Then Editted said “ok, we will double it”
That's a good thing, isn't it?
A Pilot standing up to The Man and putting his feet to the fire.
And gettin' paid.

Who among you wouldn't jump at this offer, especially right after "retirement".
That would be like winning the lottery, wouldn't it?

I suspect a lot of the Flair-related bitterness is due to others not being able to take advantage of some opportunities.
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Post by MyWave »

prop2jet wrote: don't for a minute suggest that there is never any backroom conversations taking place between the respective owners.
I didn't.
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