New Cathay Pacific Deal

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dtpilot
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New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by dtpilot »

I was just curious as to how the new deal that is being offered at Cathay Pacific compares to the pre-recession deal and the one that was offered earlier this year. It seems that there is a lot of talk about how bad the post-recession offer was (I agree it was a fraction of what the original was) but having taken a look at it the most recent one it doesn't seem too bad. However, I don't have much to compare it too... The salary seems decent for starters and the housing allowance is back.
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WhatThe?
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Re: New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by WhatThe? »

Read PPrune's 197 pages of info on the new deal. It's crap, and embarrassing that they think experienced pilots would accept it.

Pathetic at best if you have anything more than 250hrs.
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Ralliart
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Re: New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by Ralliart »

housing allowance is back.
The housing allowance is NOT back. It's a significantly reduced allowance that will require you to spend a good portion of your income just to provide a (small) roof over your head.

Pathetic it is.
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fingersmac
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Re: New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by fingersmac »

Someone posted on Pprune that a third year DESO on the former expat package makes as much as a 1st year captain on local terms. That may or may not be exaggerated but it's probably close when you factor in the generous housing allowance.

What they are offering now is an embarrassment for an airline of it's stature. What was once a career airline may be come a stepping stone to other airlines/contracts.
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Howitzer
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Re: New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by Howitzer »

I saw the package pre recession and post recession, as i was in the DESO hiring pool. They're not even close to the same. I'd be willing to be that over 95% of people that were holding out for the first and offered the second said no. With good reason.

PM if you want details.
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~Hollywood~
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Re: New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by ~Hollywood~ »

For anyone who is wondering what the current package at CX includes, here it is:

Monthly Package ($HKD):

Second Officer - Year 1
Salary $35,170
Hourly Duty Pay (84hrs) $3,517
Hong Kong Pilot Allowance $10,000
Total $48,687/month = $584,244/year = $73,828.68 CDN

Second Officer - Year 2
Salary $40,573
Hourly Duty Pay (84hrs) $4,057
Hong Kong Pilot Allowance $10,000
Total $54,631/month = $655,572/year = $82,832.97 CDN

Second Officer - Year 3
Salary $45,443
Hourly Duty Pay (84hrs) $4,554
Hong Kong Pilot Allowance $10,000
Total $59,987/month = $719,844/year = $90,930.92 CDN

Junior First Officer - Year 1
Salary $55,577
Hourly Duty Pay (84hrs) $5,558
Hong Kong Pilot Allowance $10,000
Total $71,135/month = $853,620/year = $107,784.48 CDN

First Officer - Year 1
Salary $72,270
Hourly Duty Pay $7,227
Hong Kong Pilot Allowance $14,000
Total $93,496/month = $$1,121,952/year = $141,654.67 CDN

Forgivable Loan:
Each successful candidate will be provided with a loan in the amount of HK$1,100,000. Depending on their experience, each candidate will spend a different amount of this loan on the training course prior to joining Cathay Pacific. Once they join and successfully complete probation, Officers who did not use all of the money for training will be eligible to receive the balance in cash. The candidates will be streamed into three programmes:
• Those with minimal or no flying experience will undergo an ab-initio training programme, using up the entire HK$1,100,000.
• Those with some relevant flying experience will undergo an Advanced Entry training programme costing approximately HK$550,000 and the remaining HK$550,000 will be made available to the Officer.
• Those who only require Transition Training will spend approximately HK$220,000 and the remaining HK$880,000 ($111,127.98 CDN) will be made available to the Officer.

This forgivable loan will be deemed to have been repaid through 6 years of continuous service with Cathay Pacific.

Children’s Education Allowance (CEA):
CEA will be extended to all pilots based in Hong Kong with children attending a recognised HK school.

Annual Bonus (13th Month Salary) and Profit Sharing Scheme:
A discretionary bonus equivalent to one month's salary is normally paid to all Officers with 12 months qualifying service as at 31st December in the relevant year. For any period of employment less than one year, the discretionary annual bonus will be paid on a pro-rata basis in accordance with Company policy.
The profit sharing scheme is based on the airlines’ audited consolidated annual results to reward employees for their contribution to the airlines success.

Provident Fund:
The Company contributes the equivalent of 15.5% of the Officer’s salary into the Provident Fund. The Officer may also elect to transfer the benefit entitlements from his/her previous employer into the Fund subject to approval by the Trustee.

Leave:
Second Officers are entitled to annual leave of 21 days per calendar year. Sick leave, maternity leave and compassionate leave are also available.

Travel & Cargo Benefits:
After the applicable qualifying period, concessional travel on Cathay Pacific and most other major airlines will be available to you, and if you are married, to your spouse and dependants. Single employees may nominate a sibling or a friend to enjoy these travel benefits. Your parents will also enjoy discounts on Cathay Pacific flights. In addition, employees are entitled to a bookable free return confirmable ticket on a Cathay Pacific flight each year.

As a new joiner you are eligible to ship 180 kg per adult and 90 kg per child under 12 years of age, of household goods from your home port of domicile to Hong Kong. In addition, there is a rebated Cargo benefit offered by the Company. After six months of service, eligible staff may ship cargo at a discounted freight charge over and above the new joiner allowances.

Medical and Dental Benefits:
The medical scheme covers consultations, medication, surgery and hospitalisation charges at a company appointed panel of doctors and at recommended hospitals. The dental plan is an optional benefit which provides access to comprehensive dental care in Hong Kong. Such benefits may also be extended to your spouse and dependants.

Insurance Benefits:
The Company insures the Officer’s flying licence to a maximum of 24 months’ salary and insures the death of an Officer equivalent to the sum of 60 months’ salary.
Optional insurance coverage for income protection, travel and critical illness are also available.

Hong Kong Salaries Tax:
Salaries tax in Hong Kong at present is not more than 17% of the employee's gross emoluments. Tax is applicable to all cash allowances provided.



Recieved from a friend recently, not familiar with what the old terms and conditions were. Howitzer maybe you can elaborate on that. Lots of good reading on pprune if you have the time as well.
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marbles1
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Re: New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by marbles1 »

The housing and the forgivable loan are the 2 changes to the Second Officer package. An S/O hired on the old package would receive 14000hkd/month cash or rental assistance of abouth 30000hkd/month. After 2 years the cash amount went up to 18000hkd and the rental assistance to over 60 000hkd/month. The new deal brought out in the past few months completely eliminated the housing assistance, however they introduced the forgivable loan and the 10000hkd/month because all but 1 of the 60 or so in the hold pool from 2008 turned down the job offer.

Something else to consider is the change to the FTLS which could have a big impact on SO upgrade time and the lack of available base slots.
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dream_big
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Re: New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by dream_big »

great post.

Would anyone happen to know what the previous package was for comparison?
How long can one expect to sit as SO prior to upgrade to FO? And further how long till new hires can expect a YYZ/YVR base?
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fingersmac
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Re: New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by fingersmac »

marbles1 just answered your questions in the post above yours. It's impossible to say how long you'll be an SO at Cathay. They are pushing to change the regulations to allow them to crew ULR trips with 1 CA/FO and 2 SOs instead of 1 CA, 2 FOs and 1 SO. I've heard the current upgrade time to JFO is about four years but if this new initiative passes then expect it to be even longer. And your P2X rating is absolutely useless anywhere else but in Hong Kong.

And, good luck with ever getting a basing in YVR or YYZ! Basing pilots in their home country allowed Cathay to save on the generous housing allowance and benefits that was offered to entice people to live in Hong Kong. Now that isn't an issue, I wouldn't hold your breath for a Canadian base.
marbles1 wrote:After 2 years the cash amount went up to 18000hkd and the rental assistance to over 60 000hkd/month.
That's more offered as a housing allowance in the old expat package than a 3rd year iCadet SO makes total in a month!!
~Hollywood~ wrote:
Monthly Package ($HKD):

Second Officer - Year 3
Salary $45,443
Hourly Duty Pay (84hrs) $4,554
Hong Kong Pilot Allowance $10,000
Total $59,987/month = $719,844/year = $90,930.92 CDN
Please keep in mind that Cathay just announced record profits earlier this spring. I can't even begin to imagine what they would offer if they were losing money!
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WhatThe?
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Re: New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by WhatThe? »

Don't forget:

No Bypass pay when they hire DEFO's again

Not paid while training in Australia

Children cannot go to "Home" country private schools anymore

Medical not fully covered for family

Couple other things as well, but since 2008 I haven't exactly dwelled on what they told me.

I felt so sorry for the HR lady when she had to call and explain the "New Offer", her voice said "I'm Sorry".
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UKPilot
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Re: New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by UKPilot »

As said above, this new offer truly is at best a C scale effort. However, if offered for an interview, definitely go. They're clearly testing the waters to see how many people they can get who are blinded by the cathay name and willing to accept these terrible conditions. Once that pool dries up, they'll have to offer something better and those guys/gals that they liked in the interview, but tastefully (read didn't allow anyone to lose face) rejected the terms and conditions certainly will get invited back under any new offer that may appear.

Obviously none of what I've said is for certain, but I think in the current climate they won't have an unlimited supply of pilots selling themselves short and will have to revamp the T's and C's on offer.

Someone on pprune took the time to work out the seniority list and anyone joining now is looking at 16 - 26 years till command and if you get that elusive base, then maybe never. I'm just heading out the door so I haven't searched for the link, but it's definitely there in the fragrant harbour wannabee's section.
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tallyho
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Re: New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by tallyho »

I just looked into the forgiveable loan. If you are hired for the shorter cadet course (1500+ hrs and ATPL), there's about 3 months trg in Oz, then after training expenses you have around $120,000 canadian left over. I'm assuming you are on some kind of salary whilst doing the training. The loan is forgiveable after 6 years (long time), so that works out as $20,000 per year providing you stay around for the six years.

If you include this then first year you are looking at $93,000, and second year over $100,000. It may not be as good as it was pre-recession, but compared to Air Canadas 40something for first two years or even westjet at 50something first two years its not exactly terrible. Even taking the cost of living into account, surely canadian pilots can live off this. Oh and tax in Hong Kong is around 15%, a lot nicer than home. Not sure why its so embarrassing, show me somewhere that pays significantly better than this. Or am I missing something? Of course be prepared to be in Hong Kong for a number of years, but who knows you may like it there.
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WhatThe?
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Re: New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by WhatThe? »

After following this thread for over a year, to put it ALL together in one ball, this is what I consider to be the iCadet program. Please note in no way am I degrading or promoting this program, just a keen observer pointing out some facts.

You finish your training in ADL after the time of your course, 61 weeks for ab-initio, 30 weeks for advanced with more than 250hrs and a CPL, 12 weeks for transition with ATPLs + 1500hrs. During these times you will be getting an allowance of AUD$100 a week.

Children's Education Allowance
Officers with the rank of First Officer or higher and living in HK are paid a children's education allowance. This equates to 50% of education costs for children aged 3 -4 years. For children aged between 5 and 18 years attending a recognized International School in HK, Cathay will reimburse 75% of the rate for the International School, or 90% of the rate for ESF schools (Primary or Secondary, as appropriate) in HK, whichever rate is the higher.

Retirement/Provident Fund
Cathay Pacific contributes the equivalent of 15.5% of its officer's salary into the Provident Fund. Officers may also elect to transfer the benefit entitlements from previous employment to the Provident Fund.


Travel and Rebated Cargo Benefits
After the applicable qualifying period, concessional travel on Cathay Pacific and most other major arilines will be available to officers and their spouses. Officer's parents will also enjoy discounts of Cathay Pacific flights. In addition, employees are entitled to a bookable free return no-subload ticket of a Cathay Pacific flight each year. Rebated Cargo is a staff benefit offered for staff to ship cargo at a discounted freight charge.

Loss of Licence Insurance
Cathay Pacific insures the Officer's flying licence to a maximum of 24 months salary.

Death Benefit
Cathay Pacific insures for the death of an officer equivalent to the sum of 60 months' salary.

Medical and Dental Benefits
The medical scheme covers consultations, medication, surgery and hospitalisation charges at a company appointed panel of doctors and at recommended hospitals. The dental plan is an optional benefit which provides access to comprehensive dental care in HK. You may select from a choice of three dental clinics and the specific treatments and procedures that are covered under the plan. Such benefits may also be extended to your spouse and dependants.

Travel Insurance
This optional benefit pays for loss of cash or personal belongings, the cancellation of a pre-paid holiday or unexpected medical treatment anywhere in the world for you, your spouse and dependants.

Critical Illness Insurance
This optional insurance will pay a cash benefit if you are diagnosed with a critical illness.

Income Protection Insurance
This optional insurance provides up to 50% of your salary if you become disabled and are unable to work for an extended period.

Housing Allowance
HKD$10,000


As an SO, you will be given a P2X rating on the aircraft you fly. The training that SOs are given for their P2X rating includes everything a new FO would receive, except they are not given base training (takeoff and landing training in the real aircraft), since they are only allowed to operate at altitudes of 10,000ft or above.

SOs log their P2X hours with this:
(flight time - 1.5 hours) divided by 2 for an ultra-long haul flight (4 crew), and (flight time - 1.5 hours) times two thirds for a three-crew flight.

SOs are on the B744, B773ER, A340 and A330
Airbus SOs do a cross crew qualification course which allows them to operate A330 and A340 after a year on the A340
B744 SOs can do a difference course to operate on both pax and freight versions

Not sure any more about “TEMP BASES for SOs”, anyone want to shed some info on that?

Upon upgrade to JFO you will start off by doing short haul sectors, basically doing duties of a FO for less pay.

Rough figures for a 1st year SO:

Income: $398148

Taxation

Tax free Threshold (Single):$108000
1st 40000 2%: $800
2nd 40000 7%: $2800
3rd 40000 12%: $4800
Remainder ($170148) 17%: $28925 (excluding Hourly Duty Pay, 13th month & Profit Share)
Total: $37325
Provisional Tax (First year only & depending when you start in Hong Kong): $41057
Gross tax: $78382 (19.7% of gross salary)
Net salary: $319766 or $26647 per month

Spending/month

Rent: $5000 (on top of $10,000 allowance which makes it $15,000)
Food: $4000
Home Phone: $500
Mobile: $120
Internet: $200
Electricity: $1000
Gas: $300
Water: $150
Public Transport: $1000
Miscellaneous: $3000
Total: $15270

Training Bond (oh forgivable loan) is taxable after the 6-years, 17% of 1,000,000hkd is a real nice thank you.

To settle all the debates and arguments regarding this iCadet program, the reason why all the current CX pilots are so against this is because CX has a history for changing T&Cs when they see fit. To make sure you all understand, the A scalers back in the day used to get good pay, good packages (like one free annual first class ticket for each family member). Then new joiners were not offered these “very good” T&Cs, meanwhile the current ones didn’t complain but CX changed their T&Cs to the newer lower ones. I don’t need to be a 20 year CX pilot to see how things have changed.


That’s it folks there you have it . Think long and hard about all the factors before considering the iCadet program, especially those with spouses or kids or lots of flying experience.


Note : copied from a post on PPRune-these are more realistic.

Also: Cathay must be getting desperate because they have put out another advertisement for Cadet second officers- they seem to be omitting the cadet part these days....curious isn't it?
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yyzcanuck
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Re: New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by yyzcanuck »

Thanks for the great info here. Does anyone know what the housing allowance looks like from Yrs 1-4 as an SO, then to FO? Does it increase like the pay and other benefits do?

Also, is there a cap on the education allowance per month, either dollars or number of kids covered?
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yyzcanuck
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Re: New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by yyzcanuck »

yyzcanuck wrote:Thanks for the great info here. Does anyone know what the housing allowance looks like from Yrs 1-4 as an SO, then to FO? Does it increase like the pay and other benefits do?

Also, is there a cap on the education allowance per month, either dollars or number of kids covered?
Sorry - just saw that my first question was answered above. It seems like that's a pretty steep drop from 30-60,000HKD/mo to 10,000HKD. Wonder if they're going to need to revise the terms - seems a lot of candidates on PPRUNE are saying they're turning it down.
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UKPilot
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Re: New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by UKPilot »

More and more are turning it down, so hopefully they will improve the conditions! I went to Hong Kong last week to have a look around and man is it a cool place, but you really really need the pre 2008 housing allowance. On average, if you want to live in something half the size of what you probably enjoy in Canada right now in a fairly good part of the city, you need to spend at least 30,0000 HKD/month.
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joeshmo
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Re: New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by joeshmo »

WhatThe? wrote:Read PPrune's 197 pages of info on the new deal. It's crap, and embarrassing that they think experienced pilots would accept it.

Pathetic at best if you have anything more than 250hrs.
What if you're only a 250 CPL though? :rolleyes:
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WhatThe?
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Re: New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by WhatThe? »

Well than, as stated it's a pretty good deal!

Skip ramp, skip crap companies, end up a hireable wide-body FO in 10yrs, and move on to a more financially rewarding company than.

Good luck, not a move for experienced drivers though.
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Speedalive
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Re: New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by Speedalive »

I’m sorry to bring up an old thread, but does anyone know if the T&C’s have improved at all since 2011?
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wirez
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Re: New Cathay Pacific Deal

Post by wirez »

The pay has not improved. Your time as SO will likely be longer now that they’re crewing long haul flights with two SOs. HKPA is still $10000 or so, which will not even get you a village house in Tung Chung. The deal is okay if you’re a young pilot with 250hours, but I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone with a bit of experience. I’m flying in the region, so feel free to ask if you have any more questions.
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