Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other side..

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C-MNOP
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Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other side..

Post by C-MNOP »

Just cruising through the want ads and had to laugh.........

While we all sit over here and argue about who is going to Be paid the least to fly a Dash/CRJ/Boeing/Airbus, China is offering alright wages.

from avcanada......
Our client offers an outstanding benefit package including:

- a monthly remuneration package, including lodging allowance and bonuses, averaging 18,000 US $ (216,000 US $ per year) net of taxes as follows:
- 11,000 US $ base remuneration (132,000 US $ per year);
- 2,500 US lodging allowance (30,000 US $ per year);
- 6,000 US $ yearly loyalty bonus paid after the first year of service;
- 26,000 US $ yearly loyalty bonus paid after the second year of service;
- 60,000 US $ loyalty bonus paid after the third year of service;
- 1,000 US $ fuel saving bonus paid every month (average based on actual numbers);
- 1,000 US $ monthly safety bonus paid every twelve months (12,000 US $);
- a travel allowance of 10,000 US $ per year;
- a 6 weeks on/two weeks off work schedule;
- medical insurance coverage in China;
- ID travel privileges as per Airline rules;
- expat support services at induction and throughout the period of service.

LOYALTY BONUS????? someone has figured it out.......wheres the bond?

FUEL SAVING BONUS?????? Great idea.....

SAFETY BONUS??????? What about SMS.......its fun to rat everyone out!

The only problem is you can see the air enter and exit your lungs when you inhale and exhale.......
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Last edited by C-MNOP on Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CanadianEh
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Re: Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other si

Post by CanadianEh »

Ya, that's why when Air Canada management says they are looking to start an airline outside of Canada I don't understand their logic. The lowest paid pilots are here in North America. We are China of pilots.
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Flightlevels
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Re: Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other si

Post by Flightlevels »

Certainly sounds good, but we are living in the right country. Thanks but no thanks. Life is too short.
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FICU
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Re: Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other si

Post by FICU »

The wages and bonuses are high for a reason... think about that for a few moments.

And... you can make 11K+ a month living in Canada in the left seat of a Boeing or Airbus.
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RFN
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Re: Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other si

Post by RFN »

You can indeed make 11k per month flying left seat heavy in Canada. At Air Canada....when you are 3 years from retirement...
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Mig29
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Re: Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other si

Post by Mig29 »

RFN wrote:You can indeed make 11k per month flying left seat heavy in Canada. At Air Canada....when you are 3 years from retirement...
I agree! :D

Besides, unless you are being constantly shot at or you are residing in a compound where there are mortar attacks every night, I don't see how BAD can it be to work in China for $200K/year for a COUPLE of years? Not a life time, just few years. And some of our guys have done the first option for much less pay (Iraq,Afghanistan, Africa etc.)

Granted, it's not the same as life in Canada, but paying off your mortgage in few years and then coming back here is not that bad of a plan in my personal opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own of course;)
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bmc
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Re: Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other si

Post by bmc »

There are a lot of places to live outside of Canada where you live safely, earn good bucks, get to give your kids a far superior education and life experience. I've been gone 14 years and I'm still looking for a compelling reason to come back.
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Re: Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other si

Post by Old fella »

bmc wrote:There are a lot of places to live outside of Canada where you live safely, earn good bucks, get to give your kids a far superior education and life experience. I've been gone 14 years and I'm still looking for a compelling reason to come back.

and...... not to mention those spots of quality Burgundy/Bordeaux/Rhone Valley/Lorie Valley.......... Midi

:mrgreen:
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FICU
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Re: Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other si

Post by FICU »

RFN wrote:You can indeed make 11k per month flying left seat heavy in Canada. At Air Canada....when you are 3 years from retirement...
There are other smaller narrow body airlines in Canada that pay well in the left seat and they pay well from year one.
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justwork
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Re: Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other si

Post by justwork »

CanadianEh wrote:Ya, that's why when Air Canada management says they are looking to start an airline outside of Canada I don't understand their logic. The lowest paid pilots are here in North America. We are China of pilots.
Quote of the year :prayer:
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Eric Janson
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Re: Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other si

Post by Eric Janson »

There has been quite a bit written about working in China over on PPRuNe.

The biggest issue is that contracts are not being honoured or changed as the Airline sees fit.

There are also a number of contracts where the salary is artificially inflated to attract people. Example:- Salary quoted is based on the maximum possible flight hours which you won't be flying.

They have also given Pilots a contract on much lower terms than promised when they show up. There have also been issues with bonuses not being paid.

I'm not saying that any of this is the case with the contract listed above but you need to be careful. The contract world is a real snakepit.

A lot of people only look at the money - big mistake. You have to look at the total package and look closely at the kind of lifestyle you will be able to live.

The grass is always greener....

Finally my Airline flies into 3 Chinese cities plus Hong Kong. The pollution has to be seen to be believed. I've flown into Beijing with the visibility 1500m in pollution. There was a brown cloud hanging over the city. Not the sort of stuff you want to breathe for any length of time.

ATC is done in Mandarin. Level of English is not great. They fly RVSM in metres.

A colleague was operating Bangkok - Beijing a few years ago. Weather was below Cat I limits and he was halfway when Chinese ATC informed him that Beijing would not accept him. He stated he wanted to proceed to the first filed alternate airport. He was told they wouldn't accept him there. He requested to proceed to the second filed alternate. He was told they wouldn't accept him there either. He finally ended up in Shanghai.

FICU is quite correct. There is a reason why they are continually looking for Pilots.
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Last edited by Eric Janson on Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bmc
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Re: Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other si

Post by bmc »

Another reason they are continually looking for pilots is the rapid explosive growth. By 2020, there will be 65 new airpôrts in China. Air travel demand is growing as people have more and more disposable income.

The thing about China is that anything that happened five or more years ago is ancient history, That country is moving and modernizing so fast it makes my head spin. According to the CEO of Ford Motor Company, consumers in Shanghai are buying new cars at a rate of 2,000 cars per week. And that is just one city.
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flyincanuck
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Re: Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other si

Post by flyincanuck »

C-MNOP wrote:
LOYALTY BONUS????? someone has figured it out.......wheres the bond?
Doesn't bobm and the Thunder Airlines group do this? Not 60k/3 years, but still not bad for a MU-2. Or any 703 operator in Canada.
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bmc
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Re: Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other si

Post by bmc »

One last post about flying in Asia. The opportunity is huge and the demand for pilots will outstrip supply. Great opportunity for Canadian pilots to fly new equipment as orders are realized.

This story was released today:

AIRLINES FORECAST TO BUY $3.5T OF NEW JETS BY 2030

Houston Chronicle, 14 February 2012

USA: Global airlines will need $3.5 trillion of new planes through 2030, with more than a third of that demand coming from Asia, Airbus's chief executive said Wednesday.

The aviation industry will require 27,800 new planes, each with more than 100 seats, between 2010 and 2030 while Asia will likely take delivery of about 9,370 of those planes worth $1.3 trillion, CEO Tom Enders said.

"Our business isn't moving to the East, it has moved to the East," Enders said during a news conference at the Singapore Airshow. "We're focused on Asia because that's where most of our growth comes from."

Airbus is wrestling long-time rival Boeing for the burgeoning Asian market. Asia provided half of Airbus's 1,600 firm orders last year. Boeing scored its biggest deal ever in November when Indonesia's Lion Air agreed to buy 230 planes for $22 billion.

Asia is expected to account for 33 percent of global air passengers by 2030, up from a current 28 percent
, according to Airbus. Europe will likely drop to 23 percent from 27 percent and the U.S. will fall to 20 percent from 27 percent, Airbus said.

France-based Airbus is the world's largest aircraft manufacturer. Chicago-based Boeing is the second-largest.
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Re: Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other si

Post by complexintentions »

Sorry, but have to disagree with Eric Janson on a couple of points. The speed at which ATC in China has improved over the last 5+ years flying into China is astounding. (EK route network.)

No, it isn't perfect but when they decide they're going to improve something...it does. Fast.

It's true that you have to be careful when selecting contracts but come on. That could be said about any overseas work. Emirates themselves are scumbag operators who have moved the goalposts a million times, and let's face it, even in Canada every operation is trying to squeeze their pilots as hard as they can. Oops, except Westjet of course, they're perfect! ;-)

How about a China Southern contract for $215,000 USD/year net?

http://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/140133 ... commuting/

Sometimes the grass really is greener. You just might have to leave the comforts of Mother Canada to get it. But I can attest the money IS real, and you do have to earn it. It ain't some coddled union job.
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FICU
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Re: Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other si

Post by FICU »

I'd be more worried about the shift of the most dangerous airspace on the planet from Africa to China/Asia. By "airspace" I'm not just referring to ATC but to the experience level of magenta only trained crews rushed into the seats. Would you put your family on one of these low cost Chinese/Asian carriers?
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Eric Janson
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Re: Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other si

Post by Eric Janson »

complexintentions wrote:Sorry, but have to disagree with Eric Janson on a couple of points. The speed at which ATC in China has improved over the last 5+ years flying into China is astounding. (EK route network.)

No, it isn't perfect but when they decide they're going to improve something...it does. Fast.
I'll agree with you that it has improved - but they still have a long way to go.

Example:- Beijing. Cleared for a visual approach from 25DME. Never asked if I had the runway in sight or whether I wanted one.

Example:- Beijing. Runways are 36L/R and 01. Runway 36R is the middle runway. Obvious safety implications.

We have to follow an approved route to all Chinese destinations. Alternative routing is not possible. Off Airway is all military airspace. Last year with the Monsoon they had flow control on our route - 3 hour delay. Alternate routing not available.

Fuel planning is impossible as you have no idea if you'll get FL301 or FL401. No idea what will happen if I take off from a Chinese airport and have to return due to a failure or if I need to dump fuel. Hope I never have to find out.
It's true that you have to be careful when selecting contracts but come on. That could be said about any overseas work. Emirates themselves are scumbag operators who have moved the goalposts a million times, and let's face it, even in Canada every operation is trying to squeeze their pilots as hard as they can.
There are significant differences in locations/jobs/companies/contracts. It also comes down to individual preference and of course where you are in your career.

Personally I don't like the Middle East - can't deal the the mentality. Climate sucks as well. I don't need the hours or Command so I choose not to work there.
Sometimes the grass really is greener. You just might have to leave the comforts of Mother Canada to get it. But I can attest the money IS real, and you do have to earn it. It ain't some coddled union job.
Agreed but people need to look carefully at what is on offer. The job you listed does not have a breakdown of the salary just a total package value. Looks like you'll be buying tickets if they are only giving 6 a year. That is why you have to look at more than the money.

I was new to the contract market 7 years ago. I've learned a few things since then.

More on China:-

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-ea ... lines.html
FICU wrote:I'd be more worried about the shift of the most dangerous airspace on the planet from Africa to China/Asia. By "airspace" I'm not just referring to ATC but to the experience level of magenta only trained crews rushed into the seats. Would you put your family on one of these low cost Chinese/Asian carriers?
FICU - agree. Indian airspace is by far the worst I've seen. Their infrastructure is designed for 1/3 of the flights they have daily. Not to mention all the people "buying" their licences. Amazing that more doesn't happen.

I fly with F/O that are reluctant to turn anything off. A few of them have specifically requested flights with me because I will let them fly with everything "off" (seems I'm one of the few that allows this). It's a big problem.

We had a briefing from airbus in December - their stated goal is to increase the level of automation. The latest manoever to be done automatically is a TCAS RA - now the autopilot flies the entire manoever.
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Re: Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other si

Post by complexintentions »

Not trying to pick a fight, you make some very good points! :o You do have to be careful which contract, and almost more importantly, which agency you select. There are horror stories, and there are success stories. Bigger rewards tend to come with bigger risks, this isn't news. There is a lot of homework required and even then, it probably won't be anything like what you expected. But this applies to ALL expat flying, ME, Africa, India, China...

But the examples you give of Chinese ATC safety threats don't really wash, IMO.

-US controllers routinely clear visual approaches before the field is declared in sight. Aren't happy with a clearance? Do something about it.

-China isn't alone in non-standard runway labelling. But the onus is on the crew to correctly identify the landing runway and match it with the one they have been cleared to approach...no? Now if you said there were no ground charts available, or they used some secret system only communicated in Chinese, I would agree - an obvious threat. But that isn't the case.

-Flying an approved route is restrictive and at times inefficient, but hardly a safety issue, likewise flow control due to weather and lack of routings. I have certainly been cleared to deviate for weather whenever I've needed to. The 3-mile offset is actually prudent as they get comfortable with RVSM.

-My a/c flies just as well at altitudes measured in metres as feet.

-Fuel planning is not "impossible", we seem to be able to operate flights daily to PEK, CAN, and PVG and so far haven't run out of fuel.

-Um, if you have a failure requiring fuel jettison and return, why do you think it will be especially difficult in China? I'd rather have an issue out of Guangzhou than Hyderabad. Or ANY Indian airport. At least you won't have eight idiot lo-cost Indian operators transmitting over top of you when you're trying to broadcast your mayday. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

-As far as pollution, I have yet to see an Indian METAR that doesn't have FU in it! Beijing has nothing on Mumbai.

Anyway this is mostly tongue in cheek, :P just trying to point out that these really aren't "safety" issues. China is no worse than many other places we operate and a lot better in fact than many, and improving rapidly.

As far as the contract listed, six tickets a year works out pretty good when you are off 2 weeks out of every 8. That's home 3 months of the year, paid travel. One wouldn't want to go back much more than that, to retain non-resident status. It's certainly more than the 1 ticket a year home paid for by Middle Eastern employers. (In both cases unlimited standby tickets are available plus interline ZED). And you're right, you have to look at the entire package not just remuneration. I haven't looked closely at this one - I meet the requirements so agencies email the links to me. I just listed it to show such things aren't complete myths. No, contract/expat jobs aren't Shangri-La. But for some people they could work out far better than remaining in the Canadian industry meatgrinder. (And on the Canadian tax treadmill.) Fear + comfort zone + other commitments keep a lot of people from thinking laterally.

As you said, there is the element of individual preference. I find it amusing that a pilot flying out of India "personally doesn't like the Middle East - can't deal with the mentality". The worst thing about Dubai/Emirates is that it IS India! And not the charming "Outsourced/English Patient" romanticization, the filthy, inefficient, shoddy, illogical reality. If you enjoy India you have no reason to hate on the major centres of the ME, it's all Sub-Continent Lite.
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bmc
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Re: Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other si

Post by bmc »

complexintentions wrote: Fear + comfort zone + other commitments keep a lot of people from thinking laterally.
I agree. And, it's not for everybody.

This quote made me laugh.
complexintentions wrote: the ME, it's all Sub-Continent Lite.

Complex...if you're on the B777 and come to GVA, send me a pm. I'm hooking up with one of the Canadians flying left seat, this Sunday night.
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Eric Janson
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Re: Raising the Bar.......Go west or east. Its the other si

Post by Eric Janson »

@complexintentions

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. I think we're saying a lot of the same things.

One small correction - I work and live in Sri Lanka. Very different than India.
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