Why no 126.7 call?

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Duncan Idaho
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Why no 126.7 call?

Post by Duncan Idaho »

I've always wondered why I never hear Air Canada or WestJet making calls on 126.7? I understand that you're almost always IFR and that you are seperated from other IFR traffic by ATC. But if you're in VMC, and your airport is not serviced with terminal airspace there's no reason that there couldn't be conflicting VFR traffic surrounding the airport OR even operating the same route. I encounter it all the time when I'm operating IFR and a VFR aircraft is occupying the same airspace sometimes there's a genuine conflict even though no one is doing anything wrong. There's often no requirement for transponders etc in these areas and some aircraft are either not transponder equipped, or simply don't have it turned on (I don't understand WHY, but they don't.) But even if you have them on TCAS why not say hello and see what their intentions are and if there is a conflict?

So just wondering how this hasn't been a problem for you guys and what the philosophy is behind not making the calls?
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Rockie
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Re: Why no 126.7 call?

Post by Rockie »

At Air Canada we never go VFR, we are always IFR. Plus there are only a few fields we go to that are either uncontrolled or we arrive/depart outside of control tower operating times. On those flights if we aren't talking to a controller we are on the designated mandatory frequency for that airfield.
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Scuba_Steve
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Re: Why no 126.7 call?

Post by Scuba_Steve »

I've heard AC make calls on 26.7 going into YMM on many occasions.
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Tiny Tyke
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Re: Why no 126.7 call?

Post by Tiny Tyke »

Simple answer is that it's hard to transmit/listen appropriately on 3 frequencies when you only have 2 radios.

1. ATC
2. MF
3 126.7
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slowstream
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Re: Why no 126.7 call?

Post by slowstream »

When I was at Canadian North as well at Suncor we just always made calls on 126.7, on the rare time we got caught late or because of ATC or other operational items the calls got missed or simply too late, but I can say comfortably that we made the calls over 95% of the times.

BTW I can attest to hearing AC Jazz and Westjet making calls on 26.7 also into Class D CZ's for what thats worth.

I agree with what was said earlier its busy, you often only have two radio's and it makes it difficult to talk and monitor with ATC, talk to ops at your destination and also listen out on 126.7 and when you have 3 radio's going and chatter on all 3 good luck hearing whats going on little alone having a good SA of that. Its not the best but its also true.
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Duncan Idaho
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Re: Why no 126.7 call?

Post by Duncan Idaho »

Well I only have about 4500 hours but I've spent a lot of it in Fort McMurray and the oilsands, Prince George, Vancouver and Yellowknife and I haven't heard an airline make a 126.7 call yet except for one from Jazz and some from Suncor. Actually 5T and 7F make a lot of them. But AC and WJ are at those airports all the time and nobody has any idea where you are except for Centre and all the aircraft that are potential conflicts for you are not on that frequency and likely not with the MF/Tower yet either. It takes about 10 seconds to make a call on departure of class C or D airspace and another 10 seconds descending out of class B, if no one calls you back you can always switch off. Plus if it was that busy there would be a terminal so there's really not that much chatter to interfere with your workload at these stations.
AIM wrote:8.11 Class G Airspace—Recommended Operating Procedures—En-Route

When aircraft are manœuvring in the vicinity of uncontrolled aerodromes or cruising in Class G airspace, the lack of information on the movements of other aircraft operating in close proximity may occasion a potential hazard to all concerned. To alleviate this situation, all pilots are advised that:

(a) when operating in Class G airspace, they should continuously monitor frequency 126.7 MHz whenever practicable;

(b) position reports should be made over all NAVAIDs along the route of flight to the nearest station having air-to-ground communications capability. These reports should be made on frequency 126.7 MHz whenever practicable. If it is necessary to use another frequency to establish communications with the ground station, the report should also be broadcast on 126.7 MHz for information of other aircraft in the area. The report should contain present position, track, altitude, altimeter setting in use, next position and ETA;

(c) immediately before changing altitude, commencing an instrument approach or departing IFR, pilots should broadcast their intentions on 126.7 MHz whenever practicable. Such broadcasts should contain adequate information to enable other pilots to be fully aware of the position and intentions so that they can determine if there will be any conflict with their flight paths;

(d) at aerodromes where an MF has been designated, arriving pilots shall first broadcast their intentions on 126.7 MHz before changing to the MF. If conflicting IFR traffic becomes evident, this change should be delayed until the conflict is resolved. Pilots departing IFR should broadcast their intentions on 126.7 MHz, in addition to the MF, prior to takeoff; and

(e) the preceding reporting requirements are considered as the minimum necessary. Pilots are encouraged to make additional reports whenever the possibility of conflicting IFR traffic is suspected. An example would be reporting prior to overflying a facility where cross traffic is probable or where there is a published instrument approach procedure.

NOTE: There is no frequency comparable to 126.7 MHz for use by aircraft equipped only with UHF; however, pertinent UHF traffic information will be relayed on the MF by the flight service specialist.
I'm just saying it'd be polite to give guys a heads up that there's 200,000 pounds of metal doing 250 kts coming at them. And I don't really think it's an excuse that you're monitoring a dispatch freq, a VFR target that's in direct conflict with you is a bigger concern. The 704 guys do it and they're coming in at the same speed so I don't totally get how it's much harder for the larger machines.

Anyway, not trying to scold anyone, just always wondered and it's something to think about. I can honestly say the odd call I get back is well worth the effort in terms of our threat and error mgmt and we're IFR on every flight as well.
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looproll
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Re: Why no 126.7 call?

Post by looproll »

well it's pretty much all transponder airspace now and the oilsands freq. is 123.5, so why make a call on 126.7?
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Duncan Idaho
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Re: Why no 126.7 call?

Post by Duncan Idaho »

looproll wrote:well it's pretty much all transponder airspace now and the oilsands freq. is 123.5, so why make a call on 126.7?
What's pretty much all transponder airspace now? Canada? Yes the oilsands zone is about 800 sq mi where the en route freq is 123.5, and that would be the appropriate freq to use in that area, I should've specified..?
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Switchfoot
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Re: Why no 126.7 call?

Post by Switchfoot »

Scuba_Steve wrote:I've heard AC make calls on 26.7 going into YMM on many occasions.
Likewise (always inbound from the east anyways).
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Duncan Idaho
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Re: Why no 126.7 call?

Post by Duncan Idaho »

Switchfoot wrote:
Scuba_Steve wrote:I've heard AC make calls on 26.7 going into YMM on many occasions.
Likewise (always inbound from the east anyways).
Oh. Ok nice :) I haven't been operating out of there for years, but AC didn't go into there much back then, so I guess I wouldn't know.

Is it SOP for you to broadcast on 26.7 when entering class E or G airspace at AC then?
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Rockie
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Re: Why no 126.7 call?

Post by Rockie »

Duncan Idaho wrote:(c) immediately before changing altitude, commencing an instrument approach or departing IFR, pilots should broadcast their intentions on 126.7 MHz whenever practicable. Such broadcasts should contain adequate information to enable other pilots to be fully aware of the position and intentions so that they can determine if there will be any conflict with their flight paths;
No matter how long you've been around there's always something to learn. I admittedly have almost no experience flying into uncontrolled airfields IFR, and the Air Canada FOM only refers us to a section in the Jeppesen text manual for the procedures while giving no other details. The applicable section in the text manual then refers you to yet another section where the 126.7 recommendation is made. Typical of how Air Canada imparts operational information, but not an excuse to not know the procedures. I will henceforth make the appropriate calls on 126.7 (whenever practicable) in consideration of the other traffic.
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Last edited by Rockie on Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
7thirtyseven
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Re: Why no 126.7 call?

Post by 7thirtyseven »

In virtually every situation where this situation may pop up you are on an atc frequency (center) and then have the choice of the MF or 126.7 for the other radio. Two reasons for picking the MF. 1. Usually there is someone very knowledgable locally on the other end and can give you presice details (126.7 is filled with local referances that are meaningless to someone who may live several thousand miles away and only see this airport once or twice a year) and 2. It doesnt take very much altitude to render 126.7 into a freq of complete gobbelygook of pilots from miles around spouting positions to places unknown. The MF on the other hand is usually airport specific and therefor much more reliable.
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Duncan Idaho
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Re: Why no 126.7 call?

Post by Duncan Idaho »

7thirtyseven wrote:In virtually every situation where this situation may pop up you are on an atc frequency (center) and then have the choice of the MF or 126.7 for the other radio. Two reasons for picking the MF. 1. Usually there is someone very knowledgable locally on the other end and can give you presice details (126.7 is filled with local referances that are meaningless to someone who may live several thousand miles away and only see this airport once or twice a year) and 2. It doesnt take very much altitude to render 126.7 into a freq of complete gobbelygook of pilots from miles around spouting positions to places unknown. The MF on the other hand is usually airport specific and therefor much more reliable.
In "virtually every situation?" How is it virtually the same everytime you enter uncontrolled airspace in VMC? IFR aircraft are in the minority of air traffic in this country, the rest of the guys just fly around and do their thing. I don't imagine you'd be comfortable deviating by more than about 3 degrees of heading when on vectors for traffic, would you? There's traffic there. And you don't want to hit them right? Well there's a lot more traffic than that..

An MF will not advise you of traffic who has cleared their airspace on departure. But that only means they are greater than 5 miles from the aerodrome. You can use radio #2 for both freqs, commencing descent call the MF, 15 min prior to ETA call 26.7, then 15-20 miles out switch back to MF and say 'Hi back with you,' and he'll let you know the snow plow is clear of the rwy or there is a new guy here etc. Three steps. If some guy is interfering with your listening watch on centre you could just turn the comm off or split the listening watch between the two crew members.
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5.5@39
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Re: Why no 126.7 call?

Post by 5.5@39 »

Perhaps a little review is in order:

126.7 call reference:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... 0-2604.htm
9.13 IFR Procedures at an Uncontrolled Aerodrome in Uncontrolled Airspace

Airspace classification review:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... #rac-2-8-5
2.8.5 Class E Airspace
2.8.7 Class G Airspace

Airspace in question as per the latest Designated Airspace Handbook:
http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefiniti ... ent_EN.pdf
3.2.1-13 Fort McMurray, AB: (Dawson Creek, BC - AD)
3.2.2-8 Fort McMurray, AB Low Level Control Area:

If while flying the LEXON 1 RNAV STAR to any approach in CYMM exits the Class E airspace noted above then you are correct.
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URC
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Re: Why no 126.7 call?

Post by URC »

If while flying the LEXON 1 RNAV STAR to any approach in CYMM exits the Class E airspace noted above then you are correct.
You do not exit Class E airspace on the LEXON STAR, therefore NOT CORRECT. There is no requirement from TC to make a call on 126.70, that's why they don't do it, (maybe with the exception of the odd ex arctic/bush pilot who spent to much time flogging around in uncontrolled airspace north of 60 who can't break the habit).
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CCR
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Re: Why no 126.7 call?

Post by CCR »

Question...Why doesn't the local traffic listen out on YEG ACC freq's (YMM specific) for the airlines? Wouldn't that make as much sense as us listening out/broadcasting on 126.7?
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lomcevak
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Re: Why no 126.7 call?

Post by lomcevak »

Duncan Idaho wrote:I've always wondered why I never hear Air Canada or WestJet making calls on 126.7? I understand that you're almost always IFR and that you are seperated from other IFR traffic by ATC. But if you're in VMC, and your airport is not serviced with terminal airspace there's no reason that there couldn't be conflicting VFR traffic surrounding the airport OR even operating the same route. I encounter it all the time when I'm operating IFR and a VFR aircraft is occupying the same airspace sometimes there's a genuine conflict even though no one is doing anything wrong. There's often no requirement for transponders etc in these areas and some aircraft are either not transponder equipped, or simply don't have it turned on (I don't understand WHY, but they don't.) But even if you have them on TCAS why not say hello and see what their intentions are and if there is a conflict?

So just wondering how this hasn't been a problem for you guys and what the philosophy is behind not making the calls?
1) We don't make a call/monitor 126.7 because 99% of the time we are IFR and do not exit controlled airspace (A,B,C,D,E).
2) If we cancel IFR on descent (usually through 12,500'), we do make/should make a call on 126.7 (even) in controlled airspace (B,C,D,E) and keep monitoring it.
3) When we elect to depart VFR, we do/should make call on MF and 126.7 prior to departure in controlled airspace (C,D,E) and monitor both as required. We also have to pick up an IFR clearance prior to entering class B (12,500')
4) If we ever enter uncontrolled airspace (G) we must make a call on 126.7 prior to entering that airspace and keep monitoring it.

Sometimes it does requires a lot of radio juggling, but it should not prevent anybody from making the required calls - but again, people do get lazy and we do rely on TCAS maybe too much....
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Flying Nutcracker
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Re: Why no 126.7 call?

Post by Flying Nutcracker »

My best friends in the sky - my eyes!

My ears are good, but my eyes ultimately wins the information battle...

I do however frequently use the suggested frequencies to help others that can't see 150000 lbs of metal...
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flyinhigh
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Re: Why no 126.7 call?

Post by flyinhigh »

The largest problem with calling on 126.7 is 3things.

1. 15 min prior to entering a airliner could still be at 30000 which means radio overlap,
Example being that if you were descending into Tbay 15 min out and called 126.7 traffic, you will get. "Calling Minneapolis Tower say again". That's just one spot this happens.

2. Airliners are extremely busying once you start down.

And 3, is we're Ifr. Meaning aircraft separation is accounted for, of course nothing beats your eyes.

Also there is TCAS so if your out there and you pop up chances are they won't descend on you.

Sry for the chopping text, wrote this with the IPhone.
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Duncan Idaho
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Re: Why no 126.7 call?

Post by Duncan Idaho »

flyinhigh wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:43 pmAnd 3, is we're Ifr. Meaning aircraft separation is accounted for,
VFR aircraft are allowed in Class E airspace with no clearance, it's only controlled for IFR traffic

LOL sorry for the bump
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