Sunwing : Czech Travel Service pilots pay in Canada ?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I would like to know the salary of the Czech Travel Service pilots who are in Canada working for Sunwing.

On Oct 22 2012, Sunwing made an LMO application for 60 pilots as Temporary Foreign Workers which was for the Czech Travel Service pilots. I have a copy of the application form they filed out.

The form asked how much the pilots would get paid. They wrote $40 to $60 an hour.

The form has a number of statements across from which there are boxes in which the applicant has to put a check-mark in order for the application to be approved. Sunwing put a check-mark in front of the following statement:

I am providing the temporary foreign worker(s) with at least the same wage as what is being paid to Canadian citizens or permanent residents who are working in the same occupation and the same workplace. I understand that HRSDC/Service Canada staff will compare the wage, I offer the temporary foreign worker(És), to the wage published on the Working in Canada Web site to ensure that I offer the prevailing wage. I will be part of an employer compliance audit and I understand that during the audit process, I may have to provide proof of the wage I offer to Canadian and permanent resident employees working in the same occupation and workplace.

I just received a message from a person who tells me the Travel Service First Officers are paid $1200 Euros a month. If true, this is illegal.

I would be very surprised that Sunwing, which is a master in exploiting every loophole in the Federal Government to gain a financial advantage over the competition, would make such a stupid mistake.

But in case they did........

If any Travel Service pilot wants to contact me in confidence either by email or through a personal message on this Forum and provide me with proof of what they are actually paid, I will inform HRDSC about it and see that they get what they were really supposed to receive.

Discretion is assured. Sunwing won't know your identity and all the Travel Service pilots will get their back pay..

Gilles

[Gilles Hudicourt]

A few replies have begun to trickle in, although from Canadians.
It seems that Sunwing's pilots are flying a lot and that the company is offering the pilots $800 for Captains and $500 for FO's to work on their days off.

Whatever the Czech pilots get in perdiem or overtime pay does not count. What I need to know is their base pay while they are in Canada. Are they getting paid the same as their Canadian counterparts ?

What is the starting base salary of the 20 Canadian seasonal pilots that Sunwing hired last fall ? This is the minimal pay that the Czech first officers should be getting. The Czech Captains should get at least what a first year canadian Captain earns at Sunwing.

Here is a pamphlet published by HRSDC with a summary of the Temporary Foreign Workers Program for those who would like to learn about the Regulations.

http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/workplaceski ... et/ECR.pdf

TFWs hired on a full-time basis are expected to
work substantially the same number of hours
per week and receive substantially the same
wage as indicated in the LMO confirmation
letter and annex.

Meaning $40 and $60 an hour of flight. That is what is stated as the wage in the LMO application.

[RogerCheckCopy]

I doubt any of these pilots are to be found on Sunwing's payroll. I am guessing they still employees with their European carriers, getting paid according to their respective contracts. I don't think Sunwing is in a position to dictate the working conditions of other airlines.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Someone wrote to me that Canadian contract pilots make $5500 a month and time and a half over 80 hours, double time on holidays.

Do the Czech Travel Service pilots on contract to fly Sunwing aircraft make that much?

If not I want to hear from you!

[whipline]

What Sunwing pays Travel Service isn't going to be what Travel Service pays their pilots. Unless you're the one negotiating the contract you'll never know.

[OPEC6-Heavy]

Gilles,

Like any airline they have a wide variety of wages depending on years of service, bases etc.. It's very much in line with Some Canadian airlines, certainly more or the same as an F/O makes at Air Canada for the first 3 years. And I can tell you some senior Capt's at TVS make more than you and I. You also need to make sure the facts are correct with regards to $60 per hour, is this Duty hrs, Flight hrs or Air time??? Who knows how the hell they calculate pay. I can imagine that any entry level F/O will make shit wages regardless the company, including new hire F/O's and FA's on the 737 at TS. An Audit is also mandatory as stated on the application, so there is no reason to give a false value or statement when an Audit is part of the approval/follow-up process and is going to take place.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I do not need to know how much Sunwing pays Travel Service for the use of Travel Service pilots. I would like to know what Travel Service pilots receive as pay when flying Canadian registered aircraft in Canada.

If any of you submit proof that you are paid less than what your Canadian counterparts are paid Sunwing will be found in contravention of Canadian regulations and will have to provide back pay to all those in that situation.

Anyone brave enough to come forward?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

What Sunwing pays Travel Service isn't going to be what Travel Service pays their pilots. Unless you're the one negotiating the contract you'll never know.

That would be highly illegal by the way.

[whipline]

Sunwing has a contract with travel service, not their pilots. Sunwing pays travel service, not their pilots. Travel service pays their pilots. Is that illegal?

Gilles are you going to tell another government agency their full of crap? Let me know how that turns out.

[TFTMB heavy]

Hello Gilles,

Just a few words to let you know all of your hard work is appreciated. Every day I come on here and look hoping you are gaining some headway, I wish I had your resolve and determination!

I also wish some people would read more carefully before replying.

Lâche pas la patate mon Gilles!

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Sunwing has a contract with travel service, not their pilots. Sunwing pays travel service, not their pilots. Travel service pays their pilots. Is that illegal?

Gilles are you going to tell another government agency their full of crap? Let me know how that turns out.

This is the form Sunwing used for the foreign pilot:

http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eforms/f ... -002)e.pdf

In it, they checked off the following boxes:

I will provide the foreign worker(s) I employ with the wages, working conditions and employment in an occupation that are substantially the same as those described in the positive Labour Market Opinion letter and annex

I am compliant with, and agree to continue to abide by the relevant federal/provincial /territorial laws that regulate employment in the occupation specified and, if applicable, the terms and conditions of any collective agreement in place. I recognize that any terms and conditions of the attached offer of employment are considered null and void if they are less favourable to the foreign worker than the standards stipulated in the relevant Labour Standards Act

I am aware of and I have complied with the recruitment and advertising requirements set by HRSDC/Service Canada by conducting advertising and recruitment activities to hire Canadian citizens and permanent residents.

I have made reasonable efforts to train Canadian citizens and permanent residents in order to meet my labour needs, where possible.

There is no ongoing or pending labour dispute at my business, and I will inform HRSDC/Service Canada staff in the case that one should develop

[Jean-Luc Monette]

There is no ongoing or pending labour dispute at my business, and I will inform HRSDC/Service Canada staff in the case that one should develop

Really?

[Gorgons]

I have made reasonable efforts to train Canadian citizens and permanent residents in order to meet my labour needs, where possible.

For sake of discussion, is it reasonable to spend the dollar amounts required to train 60 or more specialized workers for temporary positions? Don't know the real costs of training 737NG crews but often hear the figure 30K tossed around... If the figure is close and the actual number is 60 its a 1.8 million dollar training cost to operate something for a short period of time. Would a company recover the 1.8 millon in that defined period of time? Would they make any profit operating that service if they added 1.8 millon in operating cost? Who benefits from training 60 people for short term work? Clearly not the company and it's shareholders. I submit the company could probably make an argument that it wasn't reasonable to train Canadians or permanent residences to meet their labour needs.

[Jim la Jungle]

Would a company recover the 1.8 millon in that defined period of time? Would they make any profit operating that service if they added 1.8 millon in operating cost?

Maybe they would if they didn't drive the travel packages' prices so low that it's actually more expensive to stay at home than go for an all inclusive to Cuba for a week!

[termerair]

I have made reasonable efforts to train Canadian citizens and permanent residents in order to meet my labour needs, where possible.

For sake of discussion, is it reasonable to spend the dollar amounts required to train 60 or more specialized workers for temporary positions? Don't know the real costs of training 737NG crews but often hear the figure 30K tossed around... If the figure is close and the actual number is 60 its a 1.8 million dollar training cost to operate something for a short period of time. Would a company recover the 1.8 millon in that defined period of time? Would they make any profit operating that service if they added 1.8 millon in operating cost? Who benefits from training 60 people for short term work? Clearly not the company and it's shareholders. I submit the company could probably make an argument that it wasn't reasonable to train Canadians or permanent residences to meet their labour needs.

Well, spending time and money to train your own people might just be the cost of doing business, no? If their business model doesn't allow them to make a profit without bringing foreign pilots, then it might be a good idea to look somewhere else...

T.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

For sake of discussion, is it reasonable to spend the dollar amounts required to train 60 or more specialized workers for temporary positions? Don't know the real costs of training 737NG crews but often hear the figure 30K tossed around... If the figure is close and the actual number is 60 its a 1.8 million dollar training cost to operate something for a short period of time. Would a company recover the 1.8 millon in that defined period of time? Would they make any profit operating that service if they added 1.8 millon in operating cost? Who benefits from training 60 people for short term work? Clearly not the company and it's shareholders. I submit the company could probably make an argument that it wasn't reasonable to train Canadians or permanent residences to meet their labour needs.

For the sake of discussion, is it reasonable to spend the dollar amount required to train 200 A-330 pilots for temporary positions ? Air Transat used to use their whole fleet of wide bodies year-round,to fly to Europe in the Summer and to fly south in the winter, although everyone agrees they were not the ideal machine for the latter.

Thanks to Sunwing's strategy and their use of FTWP and short term leases, Air Transat can no longer use their wide bodies in the winter but still has ample use for them in the summer. The result: Air Transat's use of Airbus 330s will become seasonal summer only jobs. Where will these temporary seasonal pilots come from ? Will Air Transat have to pay for their training ? Not if the competition doesn't. They will do whatever it takes to balance the books.

Do you not see where this is going if not stopped ?

[Gorgons]

Well, spending time and money to train your own people might just be the cost of doing business, no? If their business model doesn't allow them to make a profit without bringing foreign pilots, then it might be a good idea to look somewhere else...

To the crux of the matter, if the costs don't support the revenue generated your out of business! instead of sacrificing a few to keep the books in black ink you end up with everybody looking for a new job, not just a few pilots.

For the sake of discussion, is it reasonable to spend the dollar amount required to train 200 A-330 pilots for temporary positions ? Air Transat used to use their whole fleet of wide bodies year-round,to fly to Europe in the Summer and to fly south in the winter, although everyone agrees they were not the ideal machine for the latter.

Thanks to Sunwing's strategy and their use of FTWP and short term leases, Air Transat can no longer use their wide bodies in the winter but still has ample use for them in the summer. The result: Air Transat's use of Airbus 330s will become seasonal summer only jobs. Where will these temporary seasonal pilots come from ? Will Air Transat have to pay for their training ? Not if the competition doesn't. They will do whatever it takes to balance the books.

Do you not see where this is going if not stopped ?

Yes, your going to force a company to operate in a manner which cannot sustain itself... Do you not see where that will go?

[corytrevor]

If you are not able to sustain your company without operating in an illegal manner, possibly forcing law abiding ones out of business, then you don't deserve to be in business.

[monkey]

I agree with Gilles it definitely needs to be stopped, but the question is how? So far it seems that Sunwing in fact is not breaking any laws as no one has put the breaks on them. Especially since the issue of foreign pilots is used through out the 705 industry. Could you even argue that Code Sharing is a form of this?

What would stop Sunwing from moving all its foreign pilots down to the Caribbean starting up a new company and operate code shares into Canadian cities?

[whipline]

Sorry Gilles, not meaning to pick on you but you never answered my question. How is the Travel service contract highly illegal? Sunwing has a contract with travel service. The travel service pilots have a contract with their company. Sunwing pays travel service, travel service pays their pilots what's in their contract. What am I missing?

Also I don't see anything in the paragraph you quoted that sunwings black and white violated.