Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Message
Author
RocksAndProps
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:36 pm

Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#1 Post by RocksAndProps » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:20 pm

There have been three more ads this week alone. Why is this still happening?

Job ads in Canada are weird, asking for 3000tt for left-seat BE20 in Canada, while 400TT gets you an right seat ATR72 in Australia, or 3000TT gets you 744 left-seat in Europe. Not sure why the North seems so behind on this prospect...

Qualified applicants need not apply :rolleyes:
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#2 Post by Cat Driver » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:31 pm

The best way to change that is for you to start your own company and then you can decide what you want for qualifications in a pilot. :mrgreen:
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

User avatar
7507
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:45 pm

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#3 Post by 7507 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:43 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:31 pm
The best way to change that is for you to start your own company and then you can decide what you want for qualifications in a pilot. :mrgreen:
A little off topic but,
I have a great idea and plan to start a floatplane charter/sightseeing business with a demand for it but my wife wont let me.
---------- ADS -----------
  

godsrcrazy
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 762
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:12 pm

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#4 Post by godsrcrazy » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:27 pm

If you don't like it then don't apply.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Zaibatsu
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:37 am

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#5 Post by Zaibatsu » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:46 pm

They are putting them up because their business model depends on it and they aren’t getting applicants.

Nobody but desperate pilots are going to drive a forklift or cargo van in Hay River or Yellowknife for the hours they require and pay they offer.

Now those same pilots are going straight into the right seat of a turboprop much further south.

Schadenfreude.
---------- ADS -----------
  

PreparBetterThnXpln
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:53 am

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#6 Post by PreparBetterThnXpln » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:12 pm

People stop applying, then they will stop asking. Supply demand.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
7507
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:45 pm

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#7 Post by 7507 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:44 pm

PreparBetterThnXpln wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:12 pm
People stop applying, then they will stop asking. Supply demand.

Exactly!
---------- ADS -----------
  

Eric Janson
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 685
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:44 am

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#8 Post by Eric Janson » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:08 pm

RocksAndProps wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:20 pm
T400TT gets you an right seat ATR72 in Australia, or 3000TT gets you 744 left-seat in Europe.
I'm based in Europe and fly regularly in Australia.

I'm disputing your claims - care to back them up with actual job listings?
---------- ADS -----------
  
Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business

Zaibatsu
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:37 am

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#9 Post by Zaibatsu » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:09 pm

7507 wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:44 pm
[quote=PreparBetterThnXpln post_id=<a href="tel:1019503">1019503</a> time=<a href="tel:1510697535">1510697535</a> user_id=53657]
People stop applying, then they will stop asking. Supply demand.

Exactly!
[/quote]

Uh...... no.

How many Air Canada ads do you see? Westjet ads? Jazz ads? None. You know why? Because they always have an abundance of applicants.

Buffalo Joe, and every other shitty operator used to be the same way... because they had a stack of resumes a foot thick plus a bunch of wannabes clawing at the door and trying to climb through the windows.
---------- ADS -----------
  

goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1109
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#10 Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:00 pm

People not applying means they will pepper the internet with ads hoping to find somebody. Once the position goes unfilled for 6 months, then they will rethink the plan and maybe hire a local for something better than slave wages.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
confusedalot
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 765
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: location, location, is what matters

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#11 Post by confusedalot » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:14 pm

So.......if no one applies, I would think that to be a positive sign for pilot employment.

The ramp ad posters are fishing, nothing more. It does not mean that they will get any bites. Lots of unemployed people out there, they will resort to unskilled non aviation help and life will go on, just like tim hortons.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Attempting to understand the world. I have not succeeded.

veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.

:?

lownslow
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 999
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:56 am

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#12 Post by lownslow » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:01 am

PreparBetterThnXpln wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:12 pm
People stop applying, then they will stop asking. Supply demand.
Surprisingly untrue. They will still show up and practically beg for a ground position if they think it gets their foot in the door or some possible future adantage.
---------- ADS -----------
  

172_Captain
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#13 Post by 172_Captain » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:53 pm

RocksAndProps wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:20 pm
There have been three more ads this week alone. Why is this still happening?

Job ads in Canada are weird, asking for 3000tt for left-seat BE20 in Canada, while 400TT gets you an right seat ATR72 in Australia, or 3000TT gets you 744 left-seat in Europe. Not sure why the North seems so behind on this prospect...

Qualified applicants need not apply :rolleyes:

Really? The last BE20 left seat job that came up only asked for 1500tt.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 7&t=120923

Also, why does it matter to you? Just because you don't see it as the right thing to do doesn't make it so. The wonderful thing about being an adult is making your own decisions.
---------- ADS -----------
  

g5
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 321
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:07 am

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#14 Post by g5 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:41 pm

The industry has changed a lot, and I'll admit I'm out of touch with 703 or anything related to Canadian aviation these days really. Years ago it was either ramp or instruct. Instructors then had the task of getting multi time.

My instructor told me to head north and get a ramp job so I did.

Some Canadians don't realize how lucky they are to do some real flying. I suppose there were times when my chief pilot was threatening to fire me for not wanting to work on my day off that I didn't appreciate flying pop'n chips in freezing rain to Fort something or whatever Lake. But I was young and up until that point it was the best job I'd ever had so I couldn't complain. I guess it depends why you are getting into aviation but I'm glad I started off on the light stuff, worked my way through medium and heavy props and then narrow body jets. I can't imagine how bored a European type rating buying RyanAir 200hr wonder is going to be 20 years into his career.

These days all I care about is how much time I get to spend at home. If you're just getting into aviation with a young family at home then I'm afraid it's probably going to suck, but if you're young and nobody is banging down your door trying to offer you your first flying gig then it may be your only option. Well... that or instruct,
---------- ADS -----------
  

valleyboy
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 242
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 4:05 am

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#15 Post by valleyboy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:55 pm

No one apply - really, pilots are a bunch of whores and there will always be someone to fill a seat. I'm not sure what is expected for 703 salaries but little airplanes = low cash flow and operators will go out of business before the salaries come up much more. Virginal pilots are looking for one thing and that is experience. If you have good working conditions and enough money to feed yourself and keep a roof over your head suck it up and take the hit in the money department. You are only working there for one reason and that is to move on as soon as you can. Stop and think about what you are getting out of it and the bullshit the small operators must go through for you to better your career. There are always 2 sides of the story and sadly a lot of the up and coming aviators only consider "me" - look at the big picture some times and consider yourself lucky.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1025
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#16 Post by rookiepilot » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:54 pm

172_Captain wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:53 pm
RocksAndProps wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:20 pm
There have been three more ads this week alone. Why is this still happening?

Job ads in Canada are weird, asking for 3000tt for left-seat BE20 in Canada, while 400TT gets you an right seat ATR72 in Australia, or 3000TT gets you 744 left-seat in Europe. Not sure why the North seems so behind on this prospect...

Qualified applicants need not apply :rolleyes:

Really? The last BE20 left seat job that came up only asked for 1500tt.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 7&t=120923

Also, why does it matter to you? Just because you don't see it as the right thing to do doesn't make it so. The wonderful thing about being an adult is making your own decisions.
Exactly. I'm not sure why this is even a story.

Pilots can command aircraft weighing upwards of a million pounds, exercise incredible judgement, but can't sift a good opportunity vs a lousy one?

Personal. Responsibility.
---------- ADS -----------
  

RocksAndProps
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:36 pm

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#17 Post by RocksAndProps » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:30 pm

Eric Janson wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:08 pm
I'm based in Europe and fly regularly in Australia.

I'm disputing your claims - care to back them up with actual job listings?
https://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Pilot ... -Australia

https://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Pilot ... a-Airlines
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#18 Post by Cat Driver » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:12 pm

Valid medical assessment of 1 Class issued in accordance with Russian regulation;
• Documents confirming total flight hours as a pilot at least 3000 hours,

not less than 500 hours of which as a pilot-in-command on the aircraft type (B744) which is planned to be operated
How many pilots meet that requirement?
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

RocksAndProps
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:36 pm

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#19 Post by RocksAndProps » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:19 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:12 pm
How many pilots meet that requirement?
This is true, very few.
Admittedly I only started this thread to get a discussion going about the current state of affairs for early-career pilots, regardless of the examples I used in doing so.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#20 Post by Cat Driver » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:47 pm

My comment was only to point out the need to read all of the add.

Working the ramp is a choice a pilot has, no more no less.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

Spandau
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:05 am

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#21 Post by Spandau » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:29 pm

Depending on what part of the industry you're working in, a year or two on the ramp is part of the required curriculum. You can look at it as "paying your dues", and there is an element of truth in that but more importantly without that experience you're going to be a danger to everyone out there with you, particularly yourself. Nobody at Moncton ever taught me how to run a Herman or bag an engine, how to sweep off an airplane without damaging it or yourself. How to deice, how to clean a windshield, how to deal with pissed off customers, missing freight... Thirty years later I still work the ramp every time I overnight somewhere and the only people to look after the airplane and put her to bed and wake her up in the morning is you and your crew. There's more to this racket than just "pushing throttles" and everyday there's an opportunity remove yourself from the gene pool.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Diadem
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 784
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: A sigma left of the top of the bell curve

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#22 Post by Diadem » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:47 pm

Spandau wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:29 pm
Depending on what part of the industry you're working in, a year or two on the ramp is part of the required curriculum. You can look at it as "paying your dues", and there is an element of truth in that but more importantly without that experience you're going to be a danger to everyone out there with you, particularly yourself. Nobody at Moncton ever taught me how to run a Herman or bag an engine, how to sweep off an airplane without damaging it or yourself. How to deice, how to clean a windshield, how to deal with pissed off customers, missing freight... Thirty years later I still work the ramp every time I overnight somewhere and the only people to look after the airplane and put her to bed and wake her up in the morning is you and your crew. There's more to this racket than just "pushing throttles" and everyday there's an opportunity remove yourself from the gene pool.
If nobody ever taught you that stuff, then what does it matter if you figured it out while you were working as a rampie or as a pilot? One way or another you're out there in the cold and the wind trying to sort it out with no one helping you.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Spandau
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:05 am

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#23 Post by Spandau » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:58 pm

I'm not saying that you can't, but what I learned working on the ramp stood me in good stead later on in my career once I started to actually fly, once I became part of a crew, and once I ended up as the captain of a crew. It was no hardship and the reality of it did me a lot of good, and if you keep your eyes open and WATCH you can learn a lot on the ramp. Starting out as the junior guy the older ones train you and keep you on a short leash initially so you don't do something really spectacular (though that still happens sometimes!) It also has a way of weeding out the duds from the resume stack before you start spending money on actually training them. Some guys don't last a weekend, and some are just too dumb to even think of putting in an airplane. Putting a guy on the ramp and seeing what he does with it will tell an operator a lot about who you are, and that decides what happens to you next.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#24 Post by Cat Driver » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:51 pm

Some guys don't last a weekend, and some are just too dumb to even think of putting in an airplane.
Yet they managed to get a commercial pilots license and maybe even an ATPL.

Does not say much for what it takes to get those licenses does it? :roll:
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

User avatar
Stan Darsh
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:44 pm
Location: America's Hat

Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#25 Post by Stan Darsh » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:40 pm

Seems like it's really easy for a number of you to assess the motivations and capabilities of newcomers to this industry. I get it, flying a 182 on floats making $15/hr is better for the psyche than hucking chips into a plane for $15/hr. But seriously, though, the idea that scoring a real flying job is inherently more noble than taking a job to pay the bills THAT GETS YOU IN TO AN AIRPLANE is such smug self-righteous HS. Many of these ramp jobs offer the pay, flight passes and benefits that Bort Dinkleman's Fly-In Adventures sure as hell won't. 2 years in to their careers the kid who took the dock/float job is applying for the same jobs the kid who got trained on the turbine 7 months in is applying for. People need money. People want to fly airplanes for money. Just because the big carriers are hiring like crazy doesn't mean that every fresh CPL is going to walk in to an airplane.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”