Hornet is out as option for Canada's replacement

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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: Hornet is out as option for Canada's replacement

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

So single engine is back in? Well now hopefully Trudy will consider the more costs effective environmentally friendly sopwith camel!
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FlightInstructionGTA
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Re: Hornet is out as option for Canada's replacement

Post by FlightInstructionGTA »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:03 am First flight of the F 35 was 2006. 15 years later it is still not fully mission capable with over 100 significant defects, has an average serviceability rate of less than 60 % and cost USD 45,000/hr to fly, almost 3 times the cost of an F18. Sounds prefect for the RCAF :roll:
About those 100 significant defects. There are plenty of other defects, close to 870 issue if you look at this article.

https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing ... 69.article

Too bad for the super hornet, It would have make sense, everybody is trained on it, it is cheaper to operate, it work, and it is not ugly compared to the F35 :p but that is personnal opinion.

I missed why Canada did not get the Eurofighter or Rafale? I am not a fighter pilot but it seemed also 2 legit contenders. if anybody knows?
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2R
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Re: Hornet is out as option for Canada's replacement

Post by 2R »

The Super Hornet is only out until it is back in . The next version is Super Duper and cheaper . Did I mention it is cheaper and could possibly be built in Canada .

The Indian Government worked out a great deal for their procurement of fighters , they actually can build and sell fighters under licence . Might be a great opportunity for a similar agreement to build under licence . Kinda like the original sales jargon used by McDonnell Douglas at the introduction of the CF18 at the old Avro plant in Malton in 1980 . Great speeches , burgers , hot dogs and free hats and CF18 tie pins . They even flew a brand new F18 up from St.Louis and parked in front of the Avro Hanger for a great photo op.
They left the hanger doors shut as that part of the hanger was being used as a storage shed for materials that they could no longer use in California due to Cancer risks and it might have been embarrassing for some of the politicians to see all that foreign Aluminium stocked up and very little from Canada .

Just seems like yesterday when I first heard this Hornet debate , they will probably still be having it in another 42 years :)
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oldncold
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Re: Hornet is out as option for Canada's replacement

Post by oldncold »

Well do both, pure aerial dog fighter j39e Grippen. higher sortie rates, lower operating costs , gravel road capable. In peace time over home soil stealth not such a priority . Just deny the airspace access to the enemy. In a wartime footing ,stealth and the sensor suite much more important. so buy both. platforms! 36- 50 f35 stealth for low sortie rates and international hostile territory ops. and the J39 88 of those for high ratio training and domestic. intercept. ops .

Politically govt wins by gaining leverage in trade with Europe and recoups the several hundred millions invested in the F35 and this is most important Canada might actually be able to defend over its own airspace vs the up n coming Russian and chin fighters.BUT without BOTH platforms. 9million square km. are open for the taking. as the f35 cannot win in a pure dog fight and the J39 e has not the stealth even though it has a low radar signature. to do search n destroy in a hostile territory stealth battle-space.

USA air-force is reevaluating the one platform F-35. Canada does have an opportunity to apply the lessons of others in the F-35 program. Weather the govt can apply them is yet to be determined. Value for the buck is the j39e . Best strategic is the f35, best defense of Canadian airspace and fulfill our obligations both domestically and abroad are both platforms. takes 7 years to build a combat ready air force. from scratch. lets get on with it
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Hornet is out as option for Canada's replacement

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

oldncold wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:41 pm Well do both, pure aerial dog fighter j39e Grippen. higher sortie rates, lower operating costs , gravel road capable. In peace time over home soil stealth not such a priority . Just deny the airspace access to the enemy. In a wartime footing ,stealth and the sensor suite much more important. so buy both. platforms! 36- 50 f35 stealth for low sortie rates and international hostile territory ops. and the J39 88 of those for high ratio training and domestic. intercept. ops .

Politically govt wins by gaining leverage in trade with Europe and recoups the several hundred millions invested in the F35 and this is most important Canada might actually be able to defend over its own airspace vs the up n coming Russian and chin fighters.BUT without BOTH platforms. 9million square km. are open for the taking. as the f35 cannot win in a pure dog fight and the J39 e has not the stealth even though it has a low radar signature. to do search n destroy in a hostile territory stealth battle-space.

USA air-force is reevaluating the one platform F-35. Canada does have an opportunity to apply the lessons of others in the F-35 program. Weather the govt can apply them is yet to be determined. Value for the buck is the j39e . Best strategic is the f35, best defense of Canadian airspace and fulfill our obligations both domestically and abroad are both platforms. takes 7 years to build a combat ready air force. from scratch. lets get on with it
Never thought about running both platforms.
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Re: Hornet is out as option for Canada's replacement

Post by 2R »

Just use the expensive duct and speed tape until the Tempest comes on line . The Tempest sales brochures are worth reading :)
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NotDirty!
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Re: Hornet is out as option for Canada's replacement

Post by NotDirty! »

oldncold wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:41 pm Well do both, pure aerial dog fighter j39e Grippen. higher sortie rates, lower operating costs , gravel road capable. In peace time over home soil stealth not such a priority . Just deny the airspace access to the enemy. In a wartime footing ,stealth and the sensor suite much more important. so buy both. platforms! 36- 50 f35 stealth for low sortie rates and international hostile territory ops. and the J39 88 of those for high ratio training and domestic. intercept. ops .

Politically govt wins by gaining leverage in trade with Europe and recoups the several hundred millions invested in the F35 and this is most important Canada might actually be able to defend over its own airspace vs the up n coming Russian and chin fighters.BUT without BOTH platforms. 9million square km. are open for the taking. as the f35 cannot win in a pure dog fight and the J39 e has not the stealth even though it has a low radar signature. to do search n destroy in a hostile territory stealth battle-space.

USA air-force is reevaluating the one platform F-35. Canada does have an opportunity to apply the lessons of others in the F-35 program. Weather the govt can apply them is yet to be determined. Value for the buck is the j39e . Best strategic is the f35, best defense of Canadian airspace and fulfill our obligations both domestically and abroad are both platforms. takes 7 years to build a combat ready air force. from scratch. lets get on with it
That would be like basing a bunch of voodoos domestically, and 104s in Europe. What kind of crazy person would do something like that??
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oldncold
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Re: Hornet is out as option for Canada's replacement

Post by oldncold »

well crazy as a fox , eh if you want to have the best defense and solid offence for Canada's airspace. having and buying both fighters platforms compliment each other .

you don't use a saws-all to cut marble counter tops or a router to remove a wall in a house if u can accept that analogy.

the mesophere cost of running 88 f35 and operational readiness of 70 percent at best means low flying hours for pilots. less combat readiness and over time losses of experience due to flying a desk because there is no more $$ in the operating budget for the fiscal year part of another retention issue for caf

the j39e lower cost 85-93percent ops readiness. but you run a higher risk profile of losing air frames in stealth warfare, over non friendly turf. and the experienced pilots that know combat tactics . running both allow operation command to fly more hours,minimize risk in so much flying jets in theater can be . , better combat readiness, lower costs and maximize threat deterrence. crazy i dont think so. but yes after 40 years one platform thinking different, but warfare isnt a static event evolve or perish because your adversary will .

I will quote winston churchill he said" to receive new information and not be willing to change course is folly"
they thought he was abit mad too, but being a mad genius at the right time in history is not a bad thing it is often defining

138 fighters 88 J39e and 50 f35 and you know canada flys there military hardware to the bitter end so more airframes = lower airframe fatigue too
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FlightInstructionGTA
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Re: Hornet is out as option for Canada's replacement

Post by FlightInstructionGTA »

Seems a good idea, but the others questions relative to Canada.

Can the governement have the budget to buy and maintain F35 which seems a platform made for a US military budget.?
and can Canada afford both platform?

Lockheed with The F35 is failing to reduce the cost per hour, So whatever they promess to Canada, it will be more expensive...for now!

But would it be a good decision to not buy it since Canada invest already so much ? Plus fighter pilots here seems to enjoy it of what I ve heard
If a RCAF Fighter pilot is reading this, it would be great to have is opinion!
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Re: Hornet is out as option for Canada's replacement

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

oldncold wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:54 pm you don't use a saws-all to cut marble counter tops or a router to remove a wall in a house if u can accept that analogy.
News to me.
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marlin
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Re: Hornet is out as option for Canada's replacement

Post by marlin »

Finland just selected the F-35 to replace their Hornet fleet, beating out the Super Hornet and Gripen. It’s worth noting that, per their evaluation, “no offer was significantly less expensive than others in operating and sustainment costs” and “the F-35 had the lowest procurement cost when considering all aspects of the offer.”

https://ilmavoimat.fi/en/-/the-lockheed ... le-fighter
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FlightInstructionGTA
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Re: Hornet is out as option for Canada's replacement

Post by FlightInstructionGTA »

Yes, apparently that is what Lockheed is saying and plan to do.

For now, the US air force is complaining about those cost and told Lockheed that they will not order above 1800 f35 instead of 2400 if Lockheed will not reduce the cost.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/07 ... ity-cliff/

I guess with more F35 around, cost will come down with a scale economy.

It also make sense to invest to a new platform of 5th generations that they are gonna keep for the next 50 years with NATO network capabilities.
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Re: Hornet is out as option for Canada's replacement

Post by Old fella »

It wouldn’t be surprising if this acquisition is pushed back another couple of years due to existing circumstances with new Covid-19, monetary issues due current inflationary situation which quite frankly( right or wrong) is taking up government thinking- as it should. The general population whit large wouldn’t notice this contract being moved further down the line and more than likely, would not care. Translation: good political cover.
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Re: Hornet is out as option for Canada's replacement

Post by Mach1 »

oldncold wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:54 pm ... losses of experience due to flying a desk because there is no more $$ in the operating budget for the fiscal year...
This is not a government concerned with budgetary restraint.

This is a government that has embraced modern monetary theory to the maximum, meaning they can and will go into infinite debt and currency printing... for issues that will get them elected. Under such brilliant economic minds, we can have a fleet of anything we want... if it gets them votes.
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Re: Hornet is out as option for Canada's replacement

Post by 2R »

Just wait a few more years for the Tempest .
The Tempest will be worth the wait .
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Re: Hornet is out as option for Canada's replacement

Post by ALPApolicy »

Is Bob Diemert's Defender not in the running?
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Re: Hornet is out as option for Canada's replacement

Post by SpyPilot »

2R wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:38 am Just wait a few more years for the Tempest
Yes, by all means. Lets wait until 2035 for the Tempest, BAE Systems Sixth - generation paper airplane.
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Re: Hornet is out as option for Canada's replacement

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

It doesn’t matter how good the F35 is, the simple fact is Canada can’t afford it. The cost of the F35 both, acquisition and operating has been going down but Lockheed has not been able to make one cost metric yet. Every build tranche has been more expensive than forecast and every operating cost reduction has been less than promised.

In real dollars the CAF annual budget is plus minus 20 billion. When you look at all the other CAF capital programs there is not enough to pay for the gold plated fighter program option.

Even the USAF and USN are cutting back their F35 buy in favour of more F 15 and F 18’s respectively. If the Americans can’t afford the F35 than how can we ?
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