NavCanada hiring practices vs the airlines

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Lets first try to get some numbers. Controllers who are here, please post how many of you completed from your initial class of how many.

[human garbage]

I don't see it any differently than people pursing other ab-initio training (to become a plumber let's say)...

True to an extent. I'm not a plumber but a carpenter and I can say that it is much different in a few ways.

Trade school will be cheaper. Like 50% cheaper. And not as long. I did my initial training (and got credit for my first year of apprenticeship) in five months. Was back working within two weeks of graduation. Many in my class were on EI after being laid off so they weren't even out of pocket. Can't get EI while training with NavCan. So cost is 50% less to 100% less. And the kicker is, you don't even need to go to school to get into the trade. Nothing says you have to. Most of the guys I've hacked wood with over the years didn't. Paid from day one while being trained, imagine that! I figured school was a decent trade off for one year credit, meaning I beat them to journeyman wage by a year.

Our class had a 85% pass rate. I agree with Illya, anything less and someone in recruiting or instructing has done a piss poor job. WTF is with cutting 95% of trainees? I wouldn't have though that remotely plausible (or sustainable- well that explains why you have to pay them lol). Talking to my instructors as I went back for my annual apprenticeship training, I found out that only about 10% of those that passed didn't return for more training. So that is 3/4 who made it through into the industry.

And that is my next point, into industry. Unlike NavCan you have a multitude of employers to choose from instead of one. Don't like where you are working? Find a different company. My first job as an apprentice was for a guy who was a raging alcoholic (beers starting at 9am coffee break) and manic-depressive. I couldn't deal with being too drunk to drive home at 3pm all the time so I moved on. Not an option at NavCanada. Eggs are all in one basket there. Don't like it, well you are back to square one. I don't count moving to another country a viable option.

For full disclosure I applied years ago to NavCanada. When they told me it would cost me $200 for the assessment I laughed and turned them down. Never paid to apply for a job and wasn't about to start is what I said. To each their own, but I would never spend my hard earned money to underwrite anyone's recruiting scheme no matter what the end pay off... And a year without pay while training (at that time half way across the country in Cornwall) was a total insult too. Add living expenses to working for free and its even crappier. No way.

[complexintentions]

lol ATC is not like plumbing or a four year degree whatsoever. With trades or post-secondary you have a choice of competing schools/universities for your education. Not so with ATC. If you complete a four year degree and can't get a job, you still have a degree. If you complete OJT to the last week and then wash out - and it happens more often than you think - you have no transferable skills whatsoever and are simply out a whole lot of time and lost opportunity cost.

During one of my bouts of unemployment in Canada I applied to NavCanada for an IFR position and was successful, but ended up receiving a better flying job offer and took that instead, thank god. ATC has the potential to be a lucrative career, but frankly the risk/reward ratio was/is too ridiculous to consider seriously.

[sh*t magnet]

Would it be fair at this point to ask how much overtime you do at NavCanada? Its the same logic you applied to the other poster.

I work very little overtime, maybe 1 a month. Lots of people work more than me, in my unit I don't think anyone works less.

I am also the person who does a lot of the decision making on whether a trainee qualifies or not. If a trainee is going to be unsuccessful there is a long and involved process that is followed, and followed to the letter. Nobody gets rid of a trainee because they don't like them, or to protect their overtime.

why are controllers even getting overtime? They do their hours...go home.

I'm all for that, choose which days in the week you don't want anybody to fly and let us know, I'd have no problem taking all my days off...

seriously without overtime the system would collapse...

If you want to work for NavCan, regardless of your previous ATC experience (other country or military), you have to take the full training (and pay for it).

Nav Canada has tried the experienced controller program and found that it didn't save the company money or time, if it saved them money they'd be all over it

It's been said before that training is a money grab but believe me, Nav Canada is not making any money on what then charge for an ATC Course.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Fantastic, thanks for this reply. So what is the wash out rate at NavCan (Nationwide) ?
I began to get a few replies from my post on Pprune and it seems that the failure the elsewhere is around 5 to 20 %

I hope that NavCan insiders will dare reply and wont be intimidated into not providing the data. If no one replies, that fact will speak for itself.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Friend's kid washed out in the last couple of weeks. BTW, nobody got through that particular course! This, I am not making up.
As for overtime....Does ATC not have a limit to the hours they work, like pilots? Or, has the guy vectoring me not been prone for 15 hours?
Illya

[sh*t magnet]

I'd guess it's about 10 to 15% but I'm not sure, I'll get a hold of training some day next week and I'll see what they say for official per centage.

We have maximum hours per 56 day cycle we can work, maximum shift length is 11.5 hours, i can't remember the max hours per 56 days because I don't work enough O/T to come close to it.

Sometimes there are courses where no one makes it, with the law of averages and the way hiring is done sometimes it happens...


and to answer the question from a while ago my course started with 28, picked up some recourses along the way and ultimately finished with six, of those six, four qualified. That was in the mid eighties and there was a lot wrong with training then, it has changed and is still changing.

[HeadingAltitudeSpeed]

We have maximum hours per 56 day cycle we can work, maximum shift length is 11.5 hours, i can't remember the max hours per 56 days because I don't work enough O/T to come close to it.

Max shift length (12 hours) and time between shifts (8-10 hours) is governed by the collective agreement. TC does not impose the same rest requirements as pilots.

Max hours of work is governed by Canada Labour code and and is about an additional 112 hours per 56 day rotation.

[wordstwice]

Ive always worked in a chronically short staffed specialty and I can tell you with certainty we wish we had more people who qualified. Coming to work always short staffed and not being able to get the vacation leave due to staffing issues get tiring really quick!

I have never seen a person who has been let go from training, whether it be a day one or at the latter stages of their training, due to any reason other than their inability to meet the required standard. To have the aptitude to be a qualified controller isnt a light switch with either an "on" or "off" setting. There are varying degrees of the amount of aptitude individuals have and therefore sometimes trainees spend along time in training or very little. The ones who spend a long time training could have been let go early on but the company tries to do everything possible to see them succeed.

Also, although some people join Nav Canada and take the job and training very seriously I have witnessed an increasing trend of young guys and gals doing the opposite. Many people do not take it serious enough, still party on their days off, show up to work not properly studied, and wonder why things didn't work out for them in the end.

So this thread needs to stop making the accusation that these individuals are somehow owed something just because they applied and paid for the initial course....they are given what they are owed and then some and Nav Canda does not allow them to be fired to maintain overtime.

As far as success rates, only Nav Canada head office truly knows that data and any responses here are far from empirical.

Cheers.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Sometimes there are courses where no one makes it, with the law of averages and the way hiring is done sometimes it happens...
g.

I'd sort of think this would have to indicate a problem. Either the prescreening needs to be overhauled, or you need somebody else teaching your courses? I've never been on any course, on anything, anywhere, where everybody flunked out.
Well okay, grade four was tough....but c'mon, "sometimes it happens....."
Not trying to pick fights here, but somebody isn't doing a very good job.
Illya

[Gilles Hudicourt]

And these failed candidates are people who were interviewed, tested and screened before beginning their course.
If most countries were to have an 80% success rate and Canada were to have an 80% failure rate, should we not draw some conclusion from these numbers ?
With an 80, 90 or 95% wash out rate, either the selection interview and aptitude testing process are flawed, or the training is flawed if not both.

Come on people, how many started the initial course with you, and of those, how many completed OJT ? We need some numbers?

No one is throwing unfounded accusations, this is a forum where everyone pitches in with their input.

I have a feeling that candidates are beeing treated unfairly, if not abused by a quasi-qovernment entity (its not a for profit corporation that I can purchase or buy shares of), and if such quasi-qovernment entities are allowed to get away with abusing people, how can we fight similar abuse by airlines and pilot training facilities that are profit driven ?

[lilfssister]

Gilles, I think you need to clarify whether you mean the percentage from start of classroom training versus starting on the job training. The classroom portion you pass the tests and evals and you continue training, or you fail these and you do not continue training.

[Braun]

6 on 11 made it and 1 person quit. So 60% success rate.

One of the 5 candidates who didn't make was due to severe attitude problems.

Overtime protection....haha please....I know more people who HAVE to work more overtime than want too. By the way ( max 96Hrs per 56 days period max shift length 12Hrs).

I don't see how they are abused, you have ALL the info before applying, I had to wo work during training to be able to pay for gas but I knew the potential for an amazing career after was there and never looked back. Is the system ideal? No. There is no perfect way. I find it hilarious that people say Americans have such better controllers than us, from working with very busy US low level and high level sectors I disagree, but hey, who am I to judge.

[Braun]

Also I read the thread on PPRUNE and things aren't very rose on the other side of the pond or down south. 4 years to qualify....ok not going to happen. I do training in my specialty and will never qualify someone who isn't up to par just for staffing needs. In the US training times are MUCH long than ours and they go to college for 3(?) years I believe.

[kevenv]

It is not easy to cease train people on OJT. They are generally given every opportunity to succeed. There are reams of paperwork for each trainee. They get daily training reports, end of each cycle training reports and end of segment reports. If someone is struggling with some area, they are interviewed and counseled with the goal of finding a way to have them over come the difficulties they are experiencing. Then they are given additional time to do so. Once they have over come their issues they resume where they left off in the process. If someone makes it to the end and is then cease trained it is because they were given every opportunity to succeed. You cannot, I repeat, cannot cease train someone without properly documenting their lack of progress or the difficulties they have. Anyone who says the made it to the end and were cease trained for no reason is lying. The trainee keeps their training record during training. They know how they are doing. It's all in the file they hold. On top of that there are interviews along the way with non ATC learning specialists, especially when they are having problems.

As for charging for the test and training... same as pilots, it's a race to the bottom. If no one applied they would change the way they do it. As it stands there are far more applicants than there are training opportunities. This is no surprise. It is well documented on a number of boards. Anyone who goes through the process and is ultimately unsuccessful and then claims it's all BS is being a bit disingenuous.

Over the past 10 years or so I have averaged about 8 overtime shifts per YEAR. I do not train people nor do I act as an OJI.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Gilles, I think you need to clarify whether you mean the percentage from start of classroom training versus starting on the job training. The classroom portion you pass the tests and evals and you continue training, or you fail these and you do not continue training.

Okay, if a candidate is selected to start training, a failure in the classroom still counts as a wash out. You can sugar coat it all you want but, as in flying, if you fail the ground school (classroom training) it's still a fail/wash out. So, if 100 people (they have gone through the interview/screening process, and been "hired") start in the classroom (this includes tests and evaluations) how many end up as licensed controllers at the end of the day? I'm guessing, less than 6-10?
Illya

[Braun]

Anyone who "washes out" before the sim/ on the job training portion lacks maturity and motivation because ANYONE can study the theory and pass, no excuse. The practical part is where people either have it or don't and we give EVERY oppurtunity to trainees to make it. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or hasn't been through the process.

[HeadingAltitudeSpeed]

Anyone who "washes out" before the sim/ on the job training portion lacks maturity and motivation because ANYONE can study the theory and pass, no excuse. The practical part is where people either have it or don't and we give EVERY oppurtunity to trainees to make it. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or hasn't been through the process.

Well said!

[Illya Kuryakin]

Anyone who "washes out" before the sim/ on the job training portion lacks maturity and motivation because ANYONE can study the theory and pass, no excuse. The practical part is where people either have it or don't and we give EVERY oppurtunity to trainees to make it. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or hasn't been through the process.

Seems the reality would beg to differ. Washing out before SIM/OJT, is still washing out? Your system has obvious flaws. No?
Illya

[Braun]

Anyone who "washes out" before the sim/ on the job training portion lacks maturity and motivation because ANYONE can study the theory and pass, no excuse. The practical part is where people either have it or don't and we give EVERY oppurtunity to trainees to make it. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or hasn't been through the process.

Seems the reality would beg to differ. Washing out before SIM/OJT, is still washing out? Your system has obvious flaws. No?
Illya

Of course it is, the course starts with a set amount of people and if, for example, 6 out of 12 fail the theory portion and then 3 out of 6 qualify your check out rate is 25%. Which is not true because there is no way people can fail the theory without not putting effort and time in studying. Which is unacceptable in this line of work. Period.

Also I said it above the system has flaws. I am an OJI and go regularly into the simulator and I do everything I can to get candidates to succeed and qualify. There is no secret recipe to this.

There are 3 categories of trainees IMHO

- Those who will make it no matter what
- Those who will make it with a lot of effort and good coaching/support
- Those who will never make it, no matter what

The problem is it is impossible to know what category you are in until you are well into training. It sucks but it is the truth. Our job is to make sure the middle group acquires the skills and confidence levels to be good ATC and not only for the first 2 years of their career but for the next 20-35 years. If you qualify marginal people I guarantee as time goes on it gets worse not better, we've all seen it. I want to avoid that.

Bottom line: Give me 10 trainees of the first two groups and 90% will check out. Problem is we get a lot from the bottom group.