Survivor of PASCO Crash Talks About His Survival

[jpilot77]

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canad ... as-on-fire

[pelmet]

Sounds like this Mcleod pilot was a real idiot. Did anyone have the ufortunate pleasure of flying with him.

[BBQ Chips]

Sounds like this Mcleod pilot was a real idiot. Did anyone have the ufortunate pleasure of flying with him.

Classy comment pelmet

I am sure his life and career had many high points and were worth so much more than the shitty decision he made that day. Sadly numerous people payed the price.

[PositiveRate27]

Sounds like this Mcleod pilot was a real idiot. Did anyone have the ufortunate pleasure of flying with him.

Classy comment pelmet

I am sure his life and career had many high points and were worth so much more than the shitty decision he made that day. Sadly numerous people payed the price.

How many times are we going to defend these people before enough is enough? I'm sorry he's dead, but Pelmet is right. If what the TSB says is true then he was committing criminal negligence. It's the same $hit at an operator 2 hangars to the West that just lost a flight crew.


"Well they had a sterling s safety record until what they have always done finally caught up to them...."

[Outlaw58]

Sounds like this Mcleod pilot was a real idiot. Did anyone have the ufortunate pleasure of flying with him.

Classy comment pelmet

I am sure his life and career had many high points and were worth so much more than the shitty decision he made that day. Sadly numerous people payed the price.

How many times are we going to defend these people before enough is enough? I'm sorry he's dead, but Pelmet is right. If what the TSB says is true then he was committing criminal negligence. It's the same $hit at an operator 2 hangars to the West that just lost a flight crew.


"Well they had a sterling s safety record until what they have always done finally caught up to them...."

The readiness to blame a dead pilot for an accident is nauseating, but it has been the tendency ever since I can remember. What pilot has not been in positions where he was in danger and where perfect judgment would have advised against going? But when a man is caught in such a position he is judged only by his error and seldom given credit for the times he has extricated himself from worse situations. Worst of all, blame is heaped upon him by other pilots, all of whom have been in parallel situations themselves, but without being caught in them. If one took no chances, one would not fly at all. Safety lies in the judgment of the chances one takes.

— Charles Lindbergh, journal entry 26 August 1938, published in The Wartime Journals, 1970.

[Flypilot]

I'm reading the book right now. It's called Moments Of Impact. It's deffinately a good reminder to make better decisions! I'm sure most of us have been in dangerous situations as a result of a poor decision we've made but just didn't get caught. The best we can do is learn from our own and others mistakes. Bashing a dead pilot likely won't make us any safer.

[Sidebar]

Bashing a dead pilot likely won't us any safer.

+1

Is there anyone out there who does stuff like in this accident? Have you changed anything since reading this report?

[Outlaw58]

First quote from Lindbergh was good but this one below is the one I was actually thinking at the time. Just took me a little longer to find it.

Whenever we talk about a pilot who has been killed in a flying accident, we should all keep one thing in mind. He called upon the sum of all his knowledge and made a judgment. He believed in it so strongly that he knowingly bet his life on it. That his judgment was faulty is a tragedy, not stupidity. Every instructor, supervisor, and contemporary who ever spoke to him had an opportunity to influence his judgment, so a little bit of all of us goes with every pilot we lose.

JP

[Ki-ll]

Has this pilot not been called on the carpet to management several times over his decision making? This accident was obviously not a simple momentary lapse in judgement.

The TSB’s investigation into the crash found that managers at Pacific Coastal Airlines had met with the pilot three times in seven months to discuss concerns they had with his decision-making.

[PositiveRate27]

That's a bunch of crap. It's one thing to have that mentality when you're the sole occupant on a flight attempting new feats in history. It's completely different when you've got an airplane full of people's loved ones trying to go to work. We are paid to keep everyone safe, not test our limits. We are supposed to be professional pilots. I remeber that day well and that airplane had no business flying VFR in those wx conditions. If I recall other pilots had already turned that flight down.

Pilots are human, and pilots make mistakes. I can understand pilots making honest errors in acute stressful situations during unfamiliar approaches, or rare emergency scenarios. I don't see this event as an honest mistake. Pulling GPWS circuit breakers and turning of the GPS to silence terrain warning systems is a constant occurrence out west. This guy had already been pulled into the chief's office several times and questioned in the preceding months. I'm sorry, but fling VFR below the legal wx limits, with the terrain warning systems off is not just bad luck, its negligence. It's no different than speeding through a residential neighborhood, running a red light and killing a bunch of pedestrians. "Hey, seemed like a good idea at the time..." Come on guys. We have to take responsibility for our actions.

If you guys want more cliches, how about this one "This industry is paved with the blood of the people who came before us." I will not stand here and accept the claim that we can't learn anything from this, and a dead pilot is absolved of all his wrong doings because he's dead. I sure hope someone reads this thread and is encouraged to change their ways. If not, these people indeed have died for no reason.

[Outlaw58]

That's a bunch of crap. It's one thing to have that mentality when you're the sole occupant on a flight attempting new feats in history. It's completely different when you've got an airplane full of people's loved ones trying to go to work. We are paid to keep everyone safe, not test our limits. We are supposed to be professional pilots. I remeber that day well and that airplane had no business flying VFR in those wx conditions. If I recall other pilots had already turned that flight down.

Pilots are human, and pilots make mistakes. I can understand pilots making honest errors in acute stressful situations during unfamiliar approaches, or rare emergency scenarios. I don't see this event as an honest mistake. Pulling GPWS circuit breakers and turning of the GPS to silence terrain warning systems is a constant occurrence out west. This guy had already been pulled into the chief's office several times and questioned in the preceding months. I'm sorry, but fling VFR below the legal wx limits, with the terrain warning systems off is not just bad luck, its negligence. It's no different than speeding through a residential neighborhood, running a red light and killing a bunch of pedestrians. "Hey, seemed like a good idea at the time..." Come on guys. We have to take responsibility for our actions.

If you guys want more cliches, how about this one "This industry is paved with the blood of the people who came before us." I will not stand here and accept the claim that we can't learn anything from this, and a dead pilot is absolved of all his wrong doings because he's dead. I sure hope someone reads this thread and is encouraged to change their ways. If not, these people indeed have died for no reason.

I'll assume this rant was directed at me and my "clichés" and say that you missed the point since I am, for all intents and purposes, saying exactly the same thing you are.

Honest mistake or not is completely irrelevant. He made a horrible call (and it appears it's not the only one), I don't think anyone will argue that fact. What I am suggesting is that instead of crapping all over him is that we try to understand what happened in his life and career that got him to ultimately make such calls. Am I potentially on the spiralling downward path that will (who knows?) ultimately lead me to make similar calls? If so, what can/should I do to change it? Do I know someone else ont hat path? And if so how can I share my experience(s) with him so he changes his ways.

JP

[iflyforpie]

The readiness to blame a dead pilot for an accident is nauseating, but it has been the tendency ever since I can remember. What pilot has not been in positions where he was in danger and where perfect judgment would have advised against going? But when a man is caught in such a position he is judged only by his error and seldom given credit for the times he has extricated himself from worse situations. Worst of all, blame is heaped upon him by other pilots, all of whom have been in parallel situations themselves, but without being caught in them. If one took no chances, one would not fly at all. Safety lies in the judgment of the chances one takes.

[/quote]

Completely unapplicable to that accident.

First.. Charles Lindbergh wrote it. If I were to head out across the Atlantic in my Cessna 172 with ferry tanks and no GPS and go non-stop from New York to Paris instead of a multi-stop great circle route... people would (rightly) think I was nuts. Lindbergh bet his life and won where many before (and after) lost.

Second. This was not a test flight. This was not a pathfinding flight. This was not a rescue mission or a war sortie. This was a routine flight with passengers on board that didn't have to dispatch.

Third. The pilot had his doubts. He knew what he was doing was wrong and tried to settle his conscience by telling people that they could get out and that they could just turn around if need be... but he continued on anyways.

Finally. This pilot was a human being and regardless of his decision his loss is a tragedy to his family, the aviation community, and everyone. But that doesn't change the fact that he made an error that cost him and most of his passengers their lives.

If I ever wind up dead for a bad decision I made... I want my legacy to be one that prevents other pilots from doing the same thing... not hushed up and white washed because of some bleeding hearts who think it is showing disrespect.

[CID]

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Pacific- ... 6772a16f73

That is NOT an airplane you launch into bad weather in. This shouldn't be a debate about "decisions". Launching into weather with paying passengers was not just negligent, it was wanton law breaking. This moron asked his passengers to speak up and get off if they had issues with flying low. That is absolutely evil. Isn't the pilot supposed to follow the rules AND fly the aircraft within the prescribed level of safety??

If ANY pilot EVER said that to me, I would not only get off the airplane, I would file a formal complaint with TC and his employer. Unfortunately, the general flying public doesn't have the judgement or understanding that it was a completely inappropriate statement.

And about that complete bullshit about not recognizing all the safe flights in the past? Isn't that what you're supposed to do? You shouldn't expect an award for doing you job properly.

[Panama Jack]

Didn't we see this scenario before? Different pilot (one Lt Col Arthur "Bud" Holland), different aircraft type (a B52) but essentially the identical scenario.

There are two responsible parties here: a rogue pilot and a management who was aware of multiple, repeated violations of regulations and SOP's, and yet their failure to take appropriate action leads to a big smoking hole and bodies.

[Outlaw58]

The readiness to blame a dead pilot for an accident is nauseating, but it has been the tendency ever since I can remember. What pilot has not been in positions where he was in danger and where perfect judgment would have advised against going? But when a man is caught in such a position he is judged only by his error and seldom given credit for the times he has extricated himself from worse situations. Worst of all, blame is heaped upon him by other pilots, all of whom have been in parallel situations themselves, but without being caught in them. If one took no chances, one would not fly at all. Safety lies in the judgment of the chances one takes.

Completely unapplicable to that accident.

First.. Charles Lindbergh wrote it. If I were to head out across the Atlantic in my Cessna 172 with ferry tanks and no GPS and go non-stop from New York to Paris instead of a multi-stop great circle route... people would (rightly) think I was nuts. Lindbergh bet his life and won where many before (and after) lost.

Second. This was not a test flight. This was not a pathfinding flight. This was not a rescue mission or a war sortie. This was a routine flight with passengers on board that didn't have to dispatch.

Third. The pilot had his doubts. He knew what he was doing was wrong and tried to settle his conscience by telling people that they could get out and that they could just turn around if need be... but he continued on anyways.

Finally. This pilot was a human being and regardless of his decision his loss is a tragedy to his family, the aviation community, and everyone. But that doesn't change the fact that he made an error that cost him and most of his passengers their lives.

If I ever wind up dead for a bad decision I made... I want my legacy to be one that prevents other pilots from doing the same thing... not hushed up and white washed because of some bleeding hearts who think it is showing disrespect.

Agreed.

I wish people would read my 2nd and 3rd post (which are much closer to the point I was trying to make) than that first one.

That being said, I never suggested any white washing nor is my heart bleeding over any "disrespect". I just have come accross too many pilots with holier than thou attitude, readily pointing fingers and shouting from the top of their soapboxes (much like I am doing now ) when they instead should take a long hard look at their own approach to flying.

A bon entendeur, Salut!

JP

[snoopy]

Interesting how company culture often seems to be dropped from the equation in these discussions. Yes, you can blame the pilot for being an asshole and recklessly endangering the passengers lives, but one has to look at how often the pilot was "rewarded" for this same behaviour when he/she "got the job done". In the aftermath of an accident most companies will do whatever it takes to make sure the insurance company pays up and the doors stay open.

Also interesting that a completely different type of pilot found himself in an equally bad situation only three months prior.

Good that this book brings this tragedy back into people's mind for a brief time, but like the newspaper headlines, I'll wager that it too will soon be forgotten and status quo will remain.

Any updates on Kathy's team? http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-tax ... -1.2840659

Cheers,
snoopy

[CID]

Yes the company is part of the equation but this wasn't a brand new pilot with no experience. Experienced pilots should know better than to take such risks regardless where the pressure is coming from.

Hitler was a bad man but do we also blame the German people for "rewarding" him for "getting the job done"? The point is that if you're wrong, you're wrong. How you ended up there is all window dressing.

[Meatservo]

I invoke Godwin's law referencing the above post^

[snoopy]

Hi CID,
By no means am I absolving this, or any other pilot from taking responsibility for their own decisions and professional conduct. I'm just pointing out that poor company culture, ie the behaviour promoted by management where pilots are regularly praised and publicly promoted for "good" behaviour (ie making it in) and silently punished for "bad behaviour" (ie turning around, waiting it out etc.) rightly or wrongly does affect the overall decision making process in many pilots. And when pilot/crew decision making goes awry - ie people get killed - companies with this type of culture are the first ones to hang the pilot to dry and come out smelling like roses. Something for pilots to think about when making important decisions.
Or not, as the case may be.
I remain hopeful that the TSB investigation will investigate and address this very topic.
Cheers,
snoopy

[tdawe]

It was a while ago so maybe I'm not remembering properly but didn't PASCO put out some sort of press release or article in a Vancouver paper after this accident basically saying it was the customer's (company contracting them, not those particular pax) fault for putting lots of pressure on them to get the flights in?