Interesting articles for expats presently out there

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loopa
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Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by loopa »

Not sure how reliable this resource is, because I have never heard of this bill going into effect until coming across this... but have a read.

First link is the petition to stop it, second link is how this bill has now become law. Anyone else have more info on this non sense?

https://www.change.org/p/hon-chris-alex ... ef=Default

https://bccla.org/2015/06/its-official- ... to-effect/

The quote that stands out
For example, new Canadians who were born in another country could be at risk of losing their Canadian citizenship if they move overseas to be with a loved one, to take a job, or to go to school - the way this law is written now. Meanwhile, other Canadians have the right to do all of those things, without any risk. No matter where our families come from, a Canadian is a Canadian, and we all deserve the same rights that come with being a Canadian citizen. That’s why this law needs to be stopped.
How many of us Canadians that were born in UK/US etc that are now flying as expats could get affected by this ? Mind you... it does say "new Canadians." Who knows what the guidelines for a new Canadian is. 25 years? 10 years? 5 years?
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Roar
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Re: Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by Roar »

I think what that law is meant for is to stop the Canadians of convience. You know the people who immigrate here then as soon as they gain citizenship move back to their original country so don't pay taxes here or contribute to Canada but then when a war or civil unrest occurs in there country they start demanding the Candian govt come rescue them. Or when they get ill travel back to Canada to take advantage of our free health care.
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Last edited by Roar on Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by photofly »

The article says a lot of things that differ markedly from the government information. Which makes the article sound like a lot of inaccurate fear mongering.

I'm a non-Canadian permanent resident who stands to be someone who could be affected by this bill as and when I apply for citizenship. I think it makes good sense and I support it. Is there a counter-petition?
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Re: Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by moocow »

It's more of a slippery slope situation and it may or may not affect me since I'm a naturalized citizen. The problem is that this law is open up for abuse should an ultra right wing party get into power. However, there are people that should have their citizen status stripped. Roar's example is a good one. Another problem is gangsters slipping into our country, gain a foothold and we can't get rid of them.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Allege ... story.html
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loopa
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Re: Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by loopa »

http://tribune.com.pk/story/899400/dual ... -new-bill/

So it sounds like even if you're Canadian born but have that ability to get a dual citizenship in another country you're the same second-class citizen.

So that's all the USA/UK/AUSTRALIA/ITALY/GERMANY decended people who have the right to get a or already have the citizenship of those countries.

So basically all of us can have our citizenship stripped lol unless the timing of our ancestors pegged that second citizenship as unavailable. Is there anyone that doesn't technically qualify for dual citizenship unless you're native Canadian? This is epic lol.
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loopa
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Re: Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by loopa »

So say you're an expat, born in UK, moved to Canada at the age of 2, went to school, got your licenses in Canada, flew for 5000 hours in Canada, go to Cathay/Emirates/Whatever with your Canadian ATPL, they take away your Canadian Citizenship cause you moved to a different country for work. Now you no longer have a Canadian ATPL either cause you don't have the right to live/reside in Canada; which is a requirement in order to obtain a canadian pilot's license.

So then are you now out on the streets with no license, no citizenship, and essentially no job cause you don't have a valid ATPL anymore? And then would you have to go to your second country (in this case the UK), and restart from scratch and get a PPL-CPL-IFR-ATPL and all your type ratings? Seems kind of intense reprimands for a Canadian citizen electing to work outside of Canada. Thoughts? 8)

http://www.sfu.ca/education/cels/biling ... -c-24.html
For example, all citizens born outside Canada (i.e. naturalized citizens) may lose their citizenship if the citizenship officer believes they do not intend to live in Canada or if they decide to move to another country to study or to work
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Roar
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Re: Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by Roar »

loopa wrote:Is there anyone that doesn't technically qualify for dual citizenship unless you're native Canadian? This is epic lol.

Yes, lots are, including me. I'm not an English Canadian or a European Canadian, I'm simply and only a Canadian. My family has been here long before Confederation on both side.
That's not to say I begrudge someone immigrating here because I don't. What does bother me is, using your example, someone immigrating here becoming a citizen then becoming an expat. Now you're not paying taxes or contributing to canada, but I bet if you got sick you'd run right back for free health care or when you retire move back and collect a pension. Which all other Canadians have paid into for a life time but you haven't , is that fair to those Canadians? No, you're simply using Canada to your advantage. Canadians that have lived there entire lives and helped build this nation have a right to be protected from being used like that and if the price of that protection is that new Canadians have to walk a slippery slope and prove their commitment to this nation then I say good. That's a small price to pay for us allowing you to be here and that only lasts one generation as your children that are born here won't have that problem.
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loopa
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Re: Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by loopa »

Roar wrote:
loopa wrote:Is there anyone that doesn't technically qualify for dual citizenship unless you're native Canadian? This is epic lol.

Yes, lots are, including me. I'm not an English Canadian or a European Canadian, I'm simply and only a Canadian. My family has been here long before Confederation on both side.
That's not to say I begrudge someone immigrating here because I don't. What does bother me is, using your example, someone immigrating here becoming a citizen then becoming an expat. Now you're not paying taxes or contributing to canada, but I bet if you got sick you'd run right back for free health care or when you retire move back and collect a pension. Which all other Canadians have paid into for a life time but you haven't , is that fair to those Canadians? No, you're simply using Canada to your advantage. Canadians that have lived there entire lives and helped build this nation have a right to be protected from being used like that and if the price of that protection is that new Canadians have to walk a slippery slope and prove their commitment to this nation then I say good. That's a small price to pay for us allowing you to be here and that only lasts one generation as your children that are born here won't have that problem.
I agree 100% as well. I don't think the argument is valid though when you compare person A) who was born here, and person B) who wasn't when you consider this example though.

The UK born, Canadian accumulates 10, 000 hours with Canadian Operators, pays his share of EI/CPP/Federal Tax etc, then bugs off for a few years as an Expat. Devil's advocate will say - Why is it that he should be stripped of his Canadian citizenship (and as a result canadian ATPL), when you're a Canadian born and can do the exact same thing? You will be able to bypass the taxation system for a few years, and run home when you're fat/dumb/happy and still take advantage of the health care you didn't pay for during your tenure out of borders.

You both paid your dues in Canada, ventured off to an expatriate lifestyle that suited you and are looking to return. The canadian born gets to come home, but the UK born doesn't. Makes a whole lot of sense. :rolleyes:

I am completely in favour of this law for people who just come to Canada to take advantage of the system and bug off with a complementary Canadian Citizenship; without paying their dues. But when you're comparing two people who venture on the same path, both paying their dues in the country prior to departure, there's no doubt that there is now a second class of citizen evolved with how the UK born will be treated.

So then what, the UK born loses his citizenship, associated licenses, and is no longer able to fly for a living cause he has no licenses to convert to his JAA body in the UK? All for living the exact same expatriate lifestyle as the Canadian born did? :smt023
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Last edited by loopa on Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by AuxBatOn »

loopa,

The citizenship requirement is for issuance. I don't believe it is required for the maintenance of the license.
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loopa
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Re: Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by loopa »

AuxBatOn wrote:loopa,

It citizenship requirement is for issuance. I don't believe it is required for the maintenance of the license.
They ask you on your medical where you're born, your citizenship, residency... I believe if you're either not a resident or citizen of Canada that you actually can't a) obtain a Canadian Class 1 medical or b) renew one. Thereby invalidating your ATPL if you ever got ur citizenship stripped due to the example above.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca ... llable.pdf

So all that money you tossed into Canadian capitalism in order to get your licenses doesn't count for anything. Because they took it away from you for simply doing the exact thing a Canadian born is able to do without the associated reprimands. Everything is under one umbrella for the UK born who immigrated as a toddler and has paid taxes worth 10, 000 hours of flying under a Canadian body. You lose your citizenship and you can't even find work elsewhere cause you're no longer a licensed pilot unless you start over with PPL-CPL-IFR-ATPL in your own governing JAA body. :mrgreen:

Boy... I didn't think this is what they meant when they said flying is a privilege. This will affect a ton of canadian's who were raised, schooled, and worked their asses off in this country only to find that the light at the end of the tunnel is only getting longer in the piloting profession. So they settled by going into the sandbox or asia to work, all in hopes to actually be able to come back home and retire with their self-made pension. If the UK born who came to Canada as a toddler can't do this without facing some type of reprimand, then neither should the Canadian born. You're doing the exact same thing.

They're treating this citizenship law like a blanket type rating. It doesn't work like that in actuality. While it solves the issues it's meant to solve, it leaves a lot up to ambiguity which can be abused by government bureaucrats.

Thoughts?
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Re: Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by photofly »

loopa wrote: you no longer have a Canadian ATPL either cause you don't have the right to live/reside in Canada; which is a requirement in order to obtain a canadian pilot's license.
There's no citizenship or residence requirement to be issued, or hold, any class of Canaidian Pilot Licence or medical. Lots of foreign students come to get flight training in Canada without Citizenship or residency.
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Re: Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by photofly »

The law says you have to *intend* to live in Canada, at the time you become a citizen. It doesn't say you have to stay here forever. It makes sense that someone who can be shown not to have intended to live here doesn't get to keep their citizenship, because they lied when they applied.

If you get Canadian citizenship when you're 2, nobody can argue that, aged 2, you lied and didn't intend to live here, even if you become an expat at age 30.

If you take Canadian citizenship at age 29, and six months later you're off to Asia tax free for 10 years, well that's a different matter. Why did you just now take Candian citizenship only not to live in Canada?

If your game plan is to come to Canada for the minimum length of time purely to get a passport then leave and spend your working career overseas, I can quite understand why the Canadian Parliament would encourage you to pick a different flag of convenience to further your plans!
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Re: Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by Roar »

photofly wrote:If your game plan is to come to Canada for the minimum length of time purely to get a passport then leave and spend your working career overseas, I can quite understand why the Canadian Parliament would encourage you to pick a different flag of convenience to further your plans!
photofly wrote:
Well said photofly. To the others please remember immigrating to Canada is NOT a RIGHT you have from birth, IT IS A PRIVILAGE that we Canadians have extended you. If it can be proven that on your application that said immigrant lied or misled us to gain citizenship, then yes that privilege should be revoked. Sorry if this offends anyone but for that opportunity and privilege of becoming Canadian you owe us a debt of staying here and helping maintain this nation. If it's China where you decide you want to go fly planes, go immigrate there.
If it means that much to you renounce your citizenship from your original country and turn that passport in, I mean you obviously moved to Canada because you believed you'd have a better life here so why the need to keep your old one. By keeping both now you have an advantage over a born Canadian in so far as you can easily go back to Europe and get a flying job ( something I'm not able to do as a Canadian only passport holder).
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Re: Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by loopa »

Great discussion point guys. I agree fully with what you say.

So you don't think they will strip someone of their citizenship after spending a life time here and then choosing to live an expatriate lifestyle?

Photofly, I was thinking of the foreign students that come here and get a Canadian License. But isn't it true that when they go back to their own countries, they convert to their own governing body? Hence they don't have to maintain a Canadian license anymore. Because I would be quite sure that if those foreign students were trying to maintain their Canadian licenses while living in their own countries, and not being a citizen/resident of Canada, that their licenses wouldn't be valid cause they can't renew their medicals. Because unlike when they were training in Canada, they are no longer residents here.

I think this is how I understood it. You know otherwise?
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Re: Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by photofly »

loopa wrote:Great discussion point guys. I agree fully with what you say.

So you don't think they will strip someone of their citizenship after spending a life time here and then choosing to live an expatriate lifestyle?
No, not in such a clear-cut case as that, I don't. I don't see any benefit to anyone in doing so. I can't swear there won't be some hard-luck cases of someone who thought they were going to live here but met a girl and moved to a different country soon after, and are forced to fall back on citizenship of, let us say, an undesirable country and the case comes to the attention of the media who make much of it. But in a situation like the one you mention - no.
Photofly, I was thinking of the foreign students that come here and get a Canadian License. But isn't it true that when they go back to their own countries, they convert to their own governing body?
Sometimes. But TC doesn't know or care about them expecting to do so when a pilot licence is issued, so what happens when they go back home doesn't influence the process. TC doesn't know whether they've got an additional licence or not, at the time they renew a medical. So that can't influence things either.
I think this is how I understood it. You know otherwise?
I got a class 1 medical in May 2012 and a PR card six months later. Nobody at TC asked or cared about my visa status at the time. They wanted an address to send the paperwork to, but that could have been a foreign address. (My FAA Airman certificate and medical have always been sent to foreign addresses - outside the USA - as I have never lived there.)

(Complete contrast to owning a Canadian registered aircraft, btw - for that to happen I had to prove I was a permanent resident. But that's a well-documented requirement, written in the CARs)
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Re: Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by photofly »

On the subject of getting Canadian medical certificates while abroad, there's a webpage on the TC website that lets you find a CAME in the country of your choice. There's no mention of citizenship or residence requirements on any of the guidance pages for CAMEs that I can find:
http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/c ... x?lang=eng
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Re: Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by bmc »

Roar wrote:
loopa wrote:Is there anyone that doesn't technically qualify for dual citizenship unless you're native Canadian? This is epic lol.

What does bother me is, using your example, someone immigrating here becoming a citizen then becoming an expat. Now you're not paying taxes or contributing to canada, but I bet if you got sick you'd run right back for free health care or when you retire move back and collect a pension. Which all other Canadians have paid into for a life time but you haven't , is that fair to those Canadians? No, you're simply using Canada to your advantage. Canadians that have lived there entire lives and helped build this nation have a right to be protected from being used like that and if the price of that protection is that new Canadians have to walk a slippery slope and prove their commitment to this nation then I say good.
So, here's my story.

Born in Montreal in 1958 to Canadian parents who had Canadian born parents.

I left Canada 17 years ago. I don't pay Canadian taxes. Why should I? There are only two countries in the world that Tax their citizens living abroad. Burundi and the USA. I don't use any Canadian services at all, so why pay for it?

The last time I used the Canadian medical system was in Victoria in 2012. To have the privilege of getting into the waiting, not including X-rays, blood work was $850 on my credit card.

We had plans to return to Canada. I found out I had stage four pancreatic cancer that had metastisized to my liver. As long as I have this disease, which is now stable, I will not take the risk with the Canadian medical system. We like to pride ourselves on how great it is, but the waiting for CT scans, MRI's or specialized procedures is completely unacceptable.

I have a private international health care package. I can go for treatment anywhere. It costs me Cdn $700 a month. How much of your taxes go to fund health care? it certainly is and never was free.

So am I a Canadian of convenience?
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Re: Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by digits_ »

As stated by photofly, there is no requirement whatsoever to be Canadian (resident) to get a canadian license.

They even mailed my license to Europe.

I get how they want to prevent people abusing citizenship, but honestly, by the time you make it to citizen, they know more about you than your parents do. They have a whole history of bank statements, tax returns, police certificates, people who vouched for your etc. If you are a Citizen, you should have all the same rights as a "real" Citizen. The selection should only happen to people with PR cards. So to "Residents of convenience".
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Re: Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by Roar »

bmc wrote:
Roar wrote:
loopa wrote:Is there anyone that doesn't technically qualify for dual citizenship unless you're native Canadian? This is epic lol.

What does bother me is, using your example, someone immigrating here becoming a citizen then becoming an expat. Now you're not paying taxes or contributing to canada, but I bet if you got sick you'd run right back for free health care or when you retire move back and collect a pension. Which all other Canadians have paid into for a life time but you haven't , is that fair to those Canadians? No, you're simply using Canada to your advantage. Canadians that have lived there entire lives and helped build this nation have a right to be protected from being used like that and if the price of that protection is that new Canadians have to walk a slippery slope and prove their commitment to this nation then I say good.
So, here's my story.

Born in Montreal in 1958 to Canadian parents who had Canadian born parents.

I left Canada 17 years ago. I don't pay Canadian taxes. Why should I? There are only two countries in the world that Tax their citizens living abroad. Burundi and the USA. I don't use any Canadian services at all, so why pay for it?

The last time I used the Canadian medical system was in Victoria in 2012. To have the privilege of getting into the waiting, not including X-rays, blood work was $850 on my credit card.

We had plans to return to Canada. I found out I had stage four pancreatic cancer that had metastisized to my liver. As long as I have this disease, which is now stable, I will not take the risk with the Canadian medical system. We like to pride ourselves on how great it is, but the waiting for CT scans, MRI's or specialized procedures is completely unacceptable.

I have a private international health care package. I can go for treatment anywhere. It costs me Cdn $700 a month. How much of your taxes go to fund health care? it certainly is and never was free.

So am I a Canadian of convenience?
No you are not, you were born here, lived here for forty years, your parents contributed for a life time as well as your grandparents.
The Law is intended to stop new Canadians taking advantage of Canada.
The incident that precipitated this new law was a few years ago when another wave of violence hit Lebanon and a bunch of "Canadians" there demanded we come rescue them. Even though a large number had not lived in Canada for years some cases decades and when they had lived in Canada it was just long enough to get citizenship. They had become Canadians for convenience, they never intended to live here. So I for one am happy the govt is trying to close that loophole.

I'm glad you are wealthy enough to pay for your own medical insurance a lot of Canadians could not afford $700 a month that is why we have a tax based health care system it affords everyone the same level of care regardless of wealth. Yes wait times can be long in our system but I've never seen anyone truly in need of urgent care put on a long wait, the system is not first come first served its most in need first. So you come in with heart failure or Cancer you'll be treated quickly, you come in because your knee cartiledge is gone yes you will wait. But that treatment will not force you into bankruptcy.
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Re: Interesting articles for expats presently out there

Post by Diadem »

I don't even pay $500/month in taxes, let alone towards health premiums specifically, and that's not taking into account the amount I get refunded. I can go to any hospital for any condition at any time, without worrying that something might not be covered by my insurance and end up costing me $10000 out-of-pocket, and in the province in which I currently live I've never had to wait more than an hour for treatment. If you had to pay $850 for treatment, it might be because you're not a resident anymore, and you no longer pay taxes or MSP; we would expect any non-Canadian who comes here to pay for their health care if they aren't contributing funding to the system, and I don't see why it would be different for a non-resident Canadian.
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