I'm thinking about building a Murphy Elite or Rebel

[Greg61]

Good day to you all!

I'm in the "muck" trying to figure out what kit plane to build. I'm looking at the Murphy Elite or Rebel but have not seen or flown on one. It does provide a compromise between speed and back woods play! A couple things on my mind, how firm is this company.. financially? What are the kits like to construct? I am also looking at the Vans 7 and have their assembly book, which is very impressive! Is there anyone in the maritime (Canada) sporting around in a Murphy? I would love to drop by for a visit and throw some money at you to go flying!

Thanking you in advance for offering your wisdom..

Cheers,
Greg
PEI

[niss]

Don't!

That's how Gregs 1 through 60 died! For the love of God Greg, break the cycle!

[AirFrame]

The Rebel is an awesome airplane, but I will qualify that by admitting I have never flown or ridden in one. We used the Rebel design in our Aero Structures class for learning how to design a light aircraft, and it appears to me to be extremely well designed with great performance for its mission profile. They're also roomy, and are wide enough to sleep two on the cabin floor.

[Taiser]

There is a super rebel at my flying strip. Won an Oshkosh award actually and I know a few other guys that have them but I've never had a chance to go up in one yet. I've never heard anything bad about them and they are GREAT bushplanes, especially on floats.

Don't listen to the nay sayers... building a plane is a great experience and I had a lot of fun building my Zenith. The kits today are solid and simple with c&c matched parts and excellent plans and support. Most kits will outperform anything certified you can find too. If it's bush planes you want there are TONS of options out there. Go for it!!!

[all_ramped_up]

I've actually clocked a short jaunt in a Rebel around ZBB, YNJ, YCW a number of years back.

Fun little machine to fly but this one needed better shielding around the exhaust as the footboards by the pax rudder pedals got rather... warm.

I'd totally love one of them on floats for ripping about here on the Cape.

[PilotDAR]

I have neither built, nor flown a Rebel. I have, however, had a really good look at a few, from a continuing maintenance perspective. I was a little put off by a few detail design elements, which I felt though airworthy, might have a rather short life, and require repair or replacement in a lesser time than a more robust design. In fairness, perhaps there have been product improvements along the way, but consider carefully wear and tear, and damage repair.

In particular, a feature which caught my eye some time ago, was rudder cables passing through a number of plastic blocks instead of pulleys. In a certified design, this would not have been permitted. I see quite a lot of work to change those plastic blocks when they wear, and they certainly will!

When I worked with Chris Heinz decades ago, on the original 701 and 601, I had similar concerns. The kit was too simple. A few upgrades would greatly extend life. Perhaps the kit designers only expected the builder to fly a few hundred hours, but the plane and its systems should last many thousands of hours without needing nuisance repairs/parts replacements...

I'm not knocking these kits, but rather suggesting that prospective builders consider longevity as an original design and construction element....

[Greg61]

Thank you to you all! Decisions, decisions, decisions!! All helpful comments.

[niss]

All helpful comments.

It's what I do.

[Greg61]

Ness... You are indeed my go guy for help!

[Waldo Peppar]

Greg61
I own a c185 on floats and was nervous at first flying it because it was so small...( Previous a/c was Ea330)
My son"s father-in-law has a Murphy rebel on murphy floats that he built and it was 3 years before I would get in it. Well I loved the aircraft....limited load on floats..more space than the 185...much better performance on/off the water ...slower cross country...Much cheaper to own and operate. I liked it.....and bought a Murphy Rebel Kit....I will sell the 185 when I have the kit finished. (Haven't started it yet) There are a bunch of "Ontario Mods" to address initial short comings. I will put a 150hp Lycoming in it, because it can use Mogas ( avgas hit over $3.38/l here last summer) I will put it on Full lotus floats for my environment. I have been told that the elite is not the airplane to buy. (There is a Little Buzzard on full lotus floats in my yard ready to fly for $17000.00 Belongs to a friend.I flew it only once...too small and light for my tastes) There is a Murphy Rebel on amphibious floats at Exploits Valley apt CCP02

[5x5]

Waldo, who told you the Elite is not worth buying? What where the reasons given with that advice?

[Waldo Peppar]

5x5:
I did not say that the Elite is not worth buying.....I was saying that given the choice between an Elite and a Rebel...it was suggested to me to get a Rebel.....That was several years ago and I cannot remember the exact reasons now and doubt I still have my notes. I would have to research again ...speak to the factory reps....consider on float performance etc....any potential buyer should do exactly that. For what it is worth...I have flown the Rebel...not an Elite, and do not know of any Elites in this area....the Rebel is popular here in NL. There was no offense intended to Elite owners.

[AirFrame]

Isn't the Elite just a fancier version of the Rebel? Wheelpants, etc.?

[Pavese]

Good day to you all!

I'm in the "muck" trying to figure out what kit plane to build. I'm looking at the Murphy Elite or Rebel but have not seen or flown on one. It does provide a compromise between speed and back woods play! A couple things on my mind, how firm is this company.. financially? What are the kits like to construct? I am also looking at the Vans 7 and have their assembly book, which is very impressive! Is there anyone in the maritime (Canada) sporting around in a Murphy? I would love to drop by for a visit and throw some money at you to go flying!

Thanking you in advance for offering your wisdom..

Cheers,
Greg
PEI

Greg

The Biggest difference between the Elite & Rebel is the Elite is a slightly bigger, newer design (although sharing much with the Rebel, particularly the wing structure). The fuselage is updated construction and shares much with the Rebel but includes improvements similar in design to a Super Rebel/Moose. It's said to be simpler to build. If it's your flavor the Elite can be had with the tail wheel on the front.

The Elite is designed to mount an O-360 while the Rebel is limited to an O-320. The 360 is said to be the ticket for floats. There aren't as many Elites around as Rebels but the Rebel came out a fair bit before the Elite.

Company wise, as a result of the 2008 dip in the economy Murphy cut back promotion to just about nothing, putting it in the hands of the Ontario distributor, Patterson. They have been taking orders until they have 10 names (deposits) before building batches of kits. Patterson doesn't like the Elite for some reason so he pushes people to buy Rebels so there haven't been many (any??) Elite sales recently.

Murphy put the company on the market maybe a year or two ago but it doesn't seem like they have had a buyer although the web site seems to have been updated recently.

The word is, the Rebel makes a great float plane, (plenty out there on Murphy Amphibs) and there is a base and building of field experience out there like the Ontario mods.

The build manual could be better but plenty of people have built them so it works.

You might also find a partially built kit out there if you want a head start and don't want to wait for a production batch.

Enjoy!

D

[Waldo Peppar]

Pavese, Thank you for that info....I agree with your info 100%
Note to 5x5...pavese has answered your question better than I .

[Greg61]

Once again, thank you for your insights and information. Next step is to actually get up and close to one of these planes. I would be willing to explore purchasing a kit partially completed.... If you know anyone let me know. Ill post my progress.

Greg

[5x5]

Hey Waldo, no sweat. I was just wondering if you had heard anything about the Elite other than what Patterson was saying. It's fairly well known in the Murphy world that he has some personal aversion to the Elite and that prejudice is commonly discounted. Unfortunately it does have impact on potential builders who aren't familiar when the guy who supposedly is trying to sell the kit is bad-mouthing it. Weird.

And I agree Pavese laid it out pretty well.

[newbiewings]

PilotDAR"
In particular, a feature which caught my eye some time ago, was rudder cables passing through a number of plastic blocks instead of pulleys. In a certified design, this would not have been permitted. I see quite a lot of work to change those plastic blocks when they wear, and they certainly will!

I think it would all depend on what those plastic blocks were. If they were a two piece design UHMW (ultra high molecular weight) block, then they would be almost better than pulleys in terms of wear, and the cables could not fall off. if they were a cheap poly design that the cable had to be threaded through, then yeah a pain where you wouldn't install a window.

[co-joe]

Odds are his margins are better on one than the other. Usually its always about money most of the time or all the time...or something.

[Taiser]

PilotDAR"
In particular, a feature which caught my eye some time ago, was rudder cables passing through a number of plastic blocks instead of pulleys. In a certified design, this would not have been permitted. I see quite a lot of work to change those plastic blocks when they wear, and they certainly will!

I think it would all depend on what those plastic blocks were. If they were a two piece design UHMW (ultra high molecular weight) block, then they would be almost better than pulleys in terms of wear, and the cables could not fall off. if they were a cheap poly design that the cable had to be threaded through, then yeah a pain where you wouldn't install a window.

There are a few in mine. On the skins where the rudder cables come out, on the upper tail for the upper elevator cable and on the front gear (big ones) for the front landing gear and a few at some bulkhead pass throughs. They are called "Nyloids" on mine, basically nylon material impregnated with oil. They are very slick and very tough. The Zen's have been flying for years with these things and I've never heard of them having to be replaced. They are only used where a change of direction is less than 3 degrees. Some guys have replaced the top elevator one with a pulley, but only to make the controls smoother and quieter. I have the nyloid on mine and honestly it's really smooth, but a pulley in that area is a good idea and I might put one in later on... Here's an example of one for the rudder cable that passes through a bulkhead. The bulkhead is drilled larger than the nyloid and keeps the cable from rubbing/bouncing on the bulkhead. I can't see this ever wearing through in my lifetime on an amateur built...