Taxis, pilots, and tipping

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Meatservo
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by Meatservo »

In Europe, tipping is less common. In some countries, they look at you funny when you try to tip them. It's almost as if they are insulted. Frankly, way back when I flew for tourist operations, I always felt awkward being presented with tips. I would try to politely deflect the offer, and if the passenger insisted to the point where it felt rude not to accept the tip, I would say thank-you and then use it to buy beer for the apprentices and rampies. I've always felt funny about being offered a tip. I hope it's something other than "ego" talking but I've always felt that I am a professional worker, and that tips are meant to be well-meaning condescensions towards those in a less fortunate position. I feel like a dick saying that, but there you go: that's how I think of it.
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by rigpiggy »

Ricktye wrote:Point to ponder..... We tip the waitress in the restaurant that brings us our meal, and smile at her doing it. What do you tip the fuel man that puts the go juice in your aircraft at -40? Just wondering... Hmmm, thought so. Why are you being so inconsiderate to him/her?
When weather was carp, I'd as a matter of rout bring 5 timmys down for Groundcrew, fueller and at times the deice crews
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DanWEC
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by DanWEC »

I have held almost every position in the restaurant and bar industry for the last 20 years. (Wowza). In Toronto, there is a good chance you could have been a guest at a place I was working at or running in the last decade. Now, I'm dabbling in brewing on my off rotations.

For servers and bartenders who's primary income is tips the legal minimum server wage in Canada is about a $1-1.50 lower that actual minimum wage. In the States you can find server wages to be in the $2-$5 per hour TOTAL! Add that to the fact that most work days are usually only for a few hours, a server's payqcheque will barely amount to much at all.

For those who think it's simple work- it's far from it. It's a skilled job, much more so than assembly line or or roofing. There are also a multitude of skill and stress levels. If you can't handle 20, 30 or a hundred people at once all needing flawless service simultaneously, you can make a comfortable amount at a Denny's or something, and it's fairly easy. If you are an excellent multitasker, can think 30 minutes and a hundred orders ahead, and don't mind constant abuse, you can make excellent money at a high end establishment or club- mind you the constant of bombardment actually manifests itself into some serious health issues- lack of sleep, heart problems, etc. Very stressful. You can make a good 6 figures, really, but it wears you out immensely. My last job before I moved into flying full time provided an income that I won't see for probably 10 more years in aviation. Had a big brand new 2 bed condo on the waterfront, 2 cars, an aviation habit to pay for and was still very comfortable. An increasing amount of people are deciding to make lifelong careers out of it.

About the tipping scenarios. I do think it's odd who you tip and who you don't. You tip a cabbie. Baggage handlers and porters when you're on vacation. Starbucks but not so much at Tims. Weird.
That being said, as far as bars and restaurants go, it's part of the economic structure, and you are NOT allowed to simply opt out of it. (Remember, they make less than minimum wage) Doing so is exactly the same is the same as arbitrarily refusing to pay your mechanic in full for doing work- just because. You are taking advantage of a cost structure that allows you to get a nice meal and then ripping them off for the remaining 20%.
Eg: With tipping, a meal for two, with a typical labour percentage of around 30%, the guest's bill might come in around $100.00. They tip $20 and the final total is $120. Everyone's happy.
In Europe they don't tip, but servers make a much higher wage ($20-$30 per hour or more) because it's a skilled position. You can get degrees in service as well.
In this structure, that meal for two will have to include a labour percentage of around 60% or more. The guest's bill will have to be around $140 to cover the operating expenses. No tip required. Everyone's still happy and making money, but remember you just paid slightly more for that meal overall.

On a side note, usually a net total of about 30% of a server or bartender's tips get taken and distributed to the cooks and other support staff. A bit even goes to the house sometimes, which is supposed to be illegal, but still happens.

A note about the increasing tip percentage over the years- In Canada, operating costs have become astronomical. It literally costs double to run a store from what it was 15 years ago. Mostly due to food costs. Yet, the guest checks haven't doubled. Up, yes, but not by 100%. Margins have just decreased substantially (Some successful chains are in the low single digit percents). You've likely noticed US chains will barely touch us anymore, and are the first to pull out when things take a downturnturn (Think Olive Garden, etc, they just can't make money here.) As a result we have to find every way we can to stretch the dwindling profits. Increasing the suggested tip percentage allows a bit more money to be distributed to all the staff without the operator going broke trying to cover expenses OR jacking up the prices to what would be seen as an unreasonable amount. It's really a benefit to the consumer!
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by Roar »

DanWEC wrote: it's part of the economic structure, and you are NOT allowed to simply opt out of it.
Please provide legal reference, either Federal or Provincial that requires a person to pay a 20% tip, or any tip for that matter.
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by DanWEC »

Roar wrote:
DanWEC wrote: it's part of the economic structure, and you are NOT allowed to simply opt out of it.
Please provide legal reference, either Federal or Provincial that requires a person to pay a 20% tip, or any tip for that matter.

I hope you're asking simply as a curiosity.... and will keep my opinions to myself, but you sound like you want something for free. Did you read the simple example I wrote about the labour structure?

It could be interpreted that since lower server wage is allowed by law when a "Substantive portion of the income is based on tips", a lawyer who is good with contract law could argue that it's then required to tip in order to justify it. But I'm certainly not a lawyer.
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Meatservo
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by Meatservo »

I agree with everything you said DanWEC. They don't tend to tip so much in Europe because servers there are better paid and the job itself is regarded more highly there than it tends to be here, although there are some very professional service people in Canada. I must say you can always spot the ones who are in it as a profession rather than to save money or move onto something they are more passionate about.

You can be a professional no matter what you do. Tipping is appropriate in Canada because of the pay structure for servers. This is exactly the same reason however that I have never felt it was appropriate to accept tips as a pilot. Luckily I have always felt that I have been paid a fair wage.

Unfortunately, I can picture a small air operator using tips as a way to continue to justify low wages for seasonal pilots! I have encountered operators who encourage the passengers to tip the plots. This has always made me feel some private disdain for both the operator and the pilots.
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by digits_ »

DanWEC wrote:
Roar wrote: It could be interpreted that since lower server wage is allowed by law when a "Substantive portion of the income is based on tips", a lawyer who is good with contract law could argue that it's then required to tip in order to justify it. But I'm certainly not a lawyer.
WTF :?


So the cusomters have to tip so the restaurant owner can justify paying his waiters poorly. Please...
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by Roar »

DanWEC wrote:
Roar wrote:
DanWEC wrote: it's part of the economic structure, and you are NOT allowed to simply opt out of it.
Please provide legal reference, either Federal or Provincial that requires a person to pay a 20% tip, or any tip for that matter.

I hope you're asking simply as a curiosity.... and will keep my opinions to myself, but you sound like you want something for free. Did you read the simple example I wrote about the labour structure?

It could be interpreted that since lower server wage is allowed by law when a "Substantive portion of the income is based on tips", a lawyer who is good with contract law could argue that it's then required to tip in order to justify it. But I'm certainly not a lawyer.
So..... you can't, its just your laymen opinion that people should tip. My issue isn't whether we should tip or not but rather your claim that "you are NOT allowed to simply opt out of it". You are representing that as fact which I don't think it is and you are not able to back up your claims.
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crazyaviator
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by crazyaviator »

I recall a placard on the instrument panel of a beaver at Rustys i flew saying : "Tipping your pilot helps him remember where he left you " Probably did get more tips! I went over the top and added a couple of golf balls hanging on some lock-wire with the caption to the effect : "If balls are on the ceiling, notify pilot he is upside down " and more, That didn't go over too well with the CP I recall :lol:
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DanWEC
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by DanWEC »

Roar wrote: So..... you can't, its just your laymen opinion that people should tip. My issue isn't whether we should tip or not but rather your claim that "you are NOT allowed to simply opt out of it". You are representing that as fact which I don't think it is and you are not able to back up your claims.
Hardly just my opinion. Does something have to be written in a regulation before It's accepted as fact? There is no Federal legislation saying I have to take my muddy, dog shitty shoes off before I walk into your living room, but if I don't, I assume I'd be receiving appropriate consequences.
As such, there is a legal definition (Anyone here with Law expertise please chime in on this.) of what a "Reasonable person" would be expected to do.

If anyone wants to deny a tip to a server because you don't believe in it, by all means, let them know before service starts. You might find yourself an unwelcome customer, and as such, a private business has no obligation serve anyone they don't want. The lack of a tip will actually cause the server to lose money out of their pocket, since they usually "tip out" the support staff based on a gross sale percentage. I don't think you'll find many people willing to actually pay for the privilege of providing a service.... if you do let me know and I'll hire them as personal servants.
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by Roar »

DanWEC wrote:
Roar wrote: So..... you can't, its just your laymen opinion that people should tip. My issue isn't whether we should tip or not but rather your claim that "you are NOT allowed to simply opt out of it". You are representing that as fact which I don't think it is and you are not able to back up your claims.
Hardly just my opinion. Does something have to be written in a regulation before It's accepted as fact? There is no Federal legislation saying I have to take my muddy, dog shitty shoes off before I walk into your living room, but if I don't, I assume I'd be receiving appropriate consequences.
If you want to deny a tip to a server because you don't believe in it, by all means, let them know before service starts. You won't be a welcome customer, and as such, a private business has no obligation serve anyone they don't want. The lack of a tip will actually cause the server to lose money out of their pocket, since they usually "tip out" the support staff based on a gross sale percentage. I don't think you'll find many people willing to actually pay for the privilege of providing a service.... if you do let me know and I'll hire them as personal servants.
In terms of paying money for something.... yes it does need to be written into regulation or else anyone could make up any reason to "require" an extra payment. If a tip was required, on the first page of the menu it would say all bills are subject to an X% gratuity surcharge. I've seen restaurants that do that, and thats fine I know upfront and am accepting that as term of eating there. (the contract of eating at a restaurant isn't between me and the staff, its between me and the ownership)
I do tip, 0-15% based on level of service. if you're good 15%, so-so 5-10% if its crappy 0%. I as a consumer am under no obligation to give a set amount or any amount.
To expect a tip is an entitled attitude, tips need to be earned.
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Gannet167
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by Gannet167 »

Tipping is NOT legally required. As a customer you enter into a contract of law with the establishment. I order a $30 steak. I receive the steak. I pay $30. That contract has been fulfilled and all parties have transacted exactly as intended. If I choose to tip, and it's MY CHOICE, I will leave what I believe is an adequate and fair amount. When the service is crap, I don't tip. They can figure it out.

However, serving is NOT a profession. A profession, by definition has completely different standards, training, conventions, is self regulated by it's own membership with widely agreed upon standards of knowledge and skill etc. Being a surgeon is a profession. I'd argue being a commercial pilot is a profession. Being a server is a labour job. That's fine, the economy needs people to work those positions and for many people it fits their skill set well. It doesn't stop a server from acting "professionally" at work, but they are not a profession.

I find it disproportionate that servers make more money in a night shift at Earl's serving Albino Rhinos than many highly educated professionals do in a day of high stakes, intense and very important work. I knew friends in university that were making close to $60k a year waiting tables back in the late 90's. Sorry, but I don't believe the work they do is "worth" that much money. It's skillful, but not nearly as much as many other jobs with higher stakes, more responsibility, more physically difficult, require more training etc. If you screw up soup vs salad, it's not quite as bad as many other, lesser paid employees making errors.

I don't tip 15%. If you are a beautiful young woman with a large bust, serving at Moxies, and serve several $100 tables in a night, you're generating hundreds of dollars in tips. If you're a single, middle aged mother, trying to keep your kids clothed and serving at a greasy spoon where the bacon and eggs are on special for $4.99, you are making a fraction of the amount. The job is essentially the same, the skills are the same. The retail price of the product is different - why is one person worth more than another? So on the $5 breakfast, I probably tip a huge %. I'll leave $10 on the table if the service was good. At Moxies/Earls/Keg, on a $100 bill, why should I pay $20 or $30 for the same thing? (Often the service is inferior) Because it's customary to do so? So the pretty young, well endowed girl serving me can live a lifestyle better than what I live based on my education and hard work? BS. If the service is really worth 6 times as much, well.... we would be in a different type of establishment.
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plhought
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by plhought »

For f*** sakes you cheap, self-righteous, pedantic, egotistical f***s.

Just tip the bloody girl for gods sakes.

No one cares about your crusade against tips or your backwards campaign for better service.

Anyone who thinks of a night out in the context of 'legal contracts' and whether or not this she is a profession/labour job "that helps keep the economy going" is f***ed in the head.

Of course, servers only 'contribute to the economy' for your pleasure of course; god forbid they enjoy what they do and live doing it. Because you know, it's labourers job to please the professionals...

For the record, pilots are not professionals, despite what people say/think.

Do they self-regulate? No.
Is their an applicable code of conduct or other governing act that dictates behaviour and conduct? No.
Is there a set standard? Only for initial licenses - not for employment or 'practising' flying so...No.
Could go on and on...

Does that one can't do their job professionally? Of course not. Just like a server could be as 'professional' as a pilot is his/her service and conduct. Professional enough to earn a tip perhaps?

Would I tip a pilot? F*** no. I can buy him beers/dinner, but I ain't giving money to any looney who felt it appropriate to join this industry despite some of the yahoos above...hahah

So in conclusion, dont be an idiot f*** and embarrass yourself. Just tip the bloody girl.

...and I could care less what transpires after this so flame away...
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Roar
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by Roar »

plhought wrote:For f*** sakes you cheap, self-righteous, pedantic, egotistical f***s.

Just tip the bloody girl for gods sakes.

No one cares about your crusade against tips or your backwards campaign for better service.

Anyone who thinks of a night out in the context of 'legal contracts' and whether or not this she is a profession/labour job "that helps keep the economy going" is f***ed in the head.

Of course, servers only 'contribute to the economy' for your pleasure of course; god forbid they enjoy what they do and live doing it. Because you know, it's labourers job to please the professionals...

For the record, pilots are not professionals, despite what people say/think.

Do they self-regulate? No.
Is their an applicable code of conduct or other governing act that dictates behaviour and conduct? No.
Is there a set standard? Only for initial licenses - not for employment or 'practising' flying so...No.
Could go on and on...

Does that one can't do their job professionally? Of course not. Just like a server could be as 'professional' as a pilot is his/her service and conduct. Professional enough to earn a tip perhaps?

Would I tip a pilot? F*** no. I can buy him beers/dinner, but I ain't giving money to any looney who felt it appropriate to join this industry despite some of the yahoos above...hahah

So in conclusion, dont be an idiot f*** and embarrass yourself. Just tip the bloody girl.

...and I could care less what transpires after this so flame away...
Wow, you've got some anger issues there! Mommy not hug you enough as a kid.
Myself and the other posters were having a respectful discussion before you came along. Apparently if a person thinks differently than you that justifies a explitive laced diatribe, seems to me you're the self-righteous one. How about you shove off!
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by esp803 »

Hey PLH,

Without tipping, how will the pilots of Chisel Air make any money?

E
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DanWEC
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by DanWEC »

Well! That was a very colorful version of what my next post was going to be. I've had this argument a thousand times and I can usually anticipate how it will go after the first few exchanges. Some people get convinced, especially after a night out with me, when they wonder why we're getting free drinks brought over, a magical table became available, no wait in the line, etc. Tipping goes a long way. This will immediately irritate people who don't believe in spreading their wealth around.
Other people won't ever get convinced and never really understand the system, and how it can benefit everyone. My father, 70 years old, who is as old school black-and-white as it gets was that way until I started working in the industry. Now he never leaves a place without a 20% tip unless someone screwed up.
While I find the discussion interesting sometimes, as well as these pseudo legal conversations, it's over complicating the point. I broke it down pretty simply how lower labor costs benefit the consumer, and also allows an exceptional server/bartender to reap the rewards of 6 figure incomes, at the expense of their sanity, knees, and ankles, holidays, families, etc.... Those are the hard workers.

Anyways. An old expression says that Frugal is a financial trait. Cheap is a personality trait.

Bottom line, unless the system changes to mimic the European one, (Which I'm not opposed to) please tip your servers. They rely on it an that's what the cost structure is based on. They/we need to make a living, and it's simply not their fault that others may not believe in the system that they rely on to make a living.
I like giving people money. I really do. It's not good for my bank account but I get a deep sense of satisfaction knowing knowing how happy that recipient is going to be.

Edit. Just read the above post by Gannet. I strongly disagree with a number of things you've said. I see your point about the middle aged breakfast worker and her income compared with a night lounge worker at Moxies. That, I agree with. But not much can be done about it. I appreciate you leaving more money and helping them out.
Problem is, the income disparity is the same that exists in EVERY industry. The greasy crim defense lawyer will make a killing but has sold out and may die of a heart attack at 60. The doctor who opens up his own botox clinic and "sells out" while his colleagues are in the ER saving lives on a hospital salary. Pretty sure Pam Anderson has more Ferrari's than a classically trained theatre actor.
Those who can make the upper levels of service, which, ABSOLUTELY is a profession. (That comment pissed me off.) have a special skill set that you cannot do. You are working literally as fast as you humanly can for 6-8 hours straight, without breaks, knowing one screwup will put you further behind and have some client upset. Now that being said, going through the ranks as a guy, I know full well that a well endowed girl has it much easier, but it will never prevent me from NOT tipping her just because I feel that she's making enough from other people? Really. If every person she serves in a night has that attitude then she wouldn't make a thing. Plus..... there are very heartwarming advantages to having pretty girls like you.
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Gannet167
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by Gannet167 »

Oxford Dictionary:

"Definition of profession in English:
noun

1. A paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification..."


http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... profession

I have worked as a line cook and a server in restaurants. There is no formal qualification. At best, being a Papered Chef is a skilled trade. Not unlike a machinist. ATPL, yes. Medical Doctor, sure. Lawyer who has been called to the Bar, yep. Military Officer, yep. Tenured university professor with a Phd, also.

Waiter, no way.

Do I feel sorry for the guy with a commercial pilot license making nothing? Yes, that's a crime, we all agree. Do I feel sorry that I leave the server at Earl's (who probably makes $60k + a year, more than many school teachers, much of which non taxed, with less than a high school education) only $10 rather than $30, NO WAY.

Their job is hard, they run for a solid 8 hours. I get that. Roofers work just as hard, infantry soldiers often triple that, both in far more dangerous conditions. Both make less. I don't leave a tip just because all the sheep are doing it. I do it because people deserve it. I have left generous tips when the service was very good.

People like giving money? Cool, why not give a 50% tip? Why not just double the bill? Leave a flat rate $200 everywhere you go? Why not tell that single mom that you'll pay for her daughter's university tuition?

I think a flat rate $10 tip makes more sense and is fair, assuming the service is good. If you stay for 3 hours pounding pints at Moxies, maybe triple that. But a % of the bill makes no sense and unfairly penalizes the non-beautiful, non-young, non-flirty, or non-female, working at a place without an overpriced menu.

I love leaving a good tip to my barber, who cuts great hair and always acts a little embarrassed at my generosity. She has a couple kids and works out of her house making a living. If the incredibly dumb girl at the Shark Club, who can't be bothered to come by and offer me another beer more than once every hour, and screws up my order, expects a tip because she's pretty and has a good body, nope. You're getting nothing. Maybe it's a clue she should try doing her job (profession? haha) a little better.
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DanWEC
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by DanWEC »

Gannet, I'm glad you tip and we agree on most parts, but you're painting with too wide of a brush when you repeat that inaccurate and personally insulting comment. I'll refer back to mentioning the various levels of service one can be in.
A Waiter at Earls. Sure, I get it.. All on the job training. A bit of quickness and a good attitude is about all you need, in addition to a pulse. Most people who aren't currently comatose can do this- though sometimes I wonder. Mostly university kids. Equivalent to a Skydive Toronto Pilot, except they aren't serving for free.
A Moxies bartender (Jesus, I was one 15 years ago) needs to be quick, happy, presentable and personable. Great traits to have. Can make decent money. Career? Maybe not. Would be sad to stay at that level.
Then....things start to take a different colour if your pursue the industry a bit more.
A bartender who takes a multitude of professional bartending and service courses, (Wait, there are courses? Sounds like a profession!) opens their own place and creates leading edge drink trends used all over the world on a nightly basis.. Hm...
A manager, who may have a Food and Beverage or Hospitality degree (Uh oh, there's that professional sounding lingo again) who also works floor and the bar in order to maintain regular front line contact with their clientele.
A server who works in a Michelin star restaurant, and is expected to know all the nuances of French service along with the detailed tasting notes of hundreds of types of wine? Hmm. You will generally see well polished 40-70 year old men doing this who have garnered decades of experience across the globe, and are usually paired with academic culinary training, as well as sommelier training.
If you tell them they don't have a "profession" you will likely get your teeth knocked in and the fat end of an '82 Rothschild poking out of your arse.

Now, wasn't this thread about Pilots and tipping?
When I was an instructor I once got a $100 bill in my mailbox for a last minute Group 1 refresher. That was nice. Had a few bills for scenic flights as well. Complete surprise. Seems to happen when you go out of your way for someone.
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Roar
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by Roar »

DanWEC,
I do have an honest question for you, no BS, pure curiosity.
You said by giving good tips you have received free drinks, how does that work exactly, does the management/ownership alot each server a set amount of drinks to give away per night to help increase tips or are the servers expropriating those drinks? I've always been uncomfortable accepting free drinks for fear the server is putting them selves out.
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Re: Taxis, pilots, and tipping

Post by DanWEC »

Roar- it depends greatly on the place.
Worst case the server will essentially give you one "under the table". This sucks. Essentially stealing from the house. It does happen, but don't try and overthink it. We usually catch the people, and they're usually surprised to learn that it's OK to offer promotions, just don't do it off the books. Screws up the numbers and can cause other issues come audit time.

Because it's a good gesture and good business practice, In my places I've always allowed the staff to use their discretion and promo a reasonable amount each night, as long as it's all accounted for and punched in. The business pays for it and allows it. It's built into the overall cost structure.

Occasionally, (And I have done it as a personal gesture) the server or bartender will outright buy you a drink. It's technically not allowed by liquor regulations.... but, by the book, neither is being remotely drunk inside a bar. Figure that one out.

Bottom line, don't ever feel bad about getting a free drink or other item. It means they actually like you and appreciate your business. Enjoying it is a good sign of appreciation in return.
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