Jets at 'The Island.'

[Driving Comet]

I'm pretty sure if the RCAF wanted to land they could do whatever they want lol

I was told a story about a CF18 doing a touch and go at the island before I got there. Can't remember the exact details, but I know it happened because my coworker showed me the letter he got from the RCAF about it. I don't think they were too happy.

[AuxBatOn]

The guy got in a bit of trouble... But not too much.

[photofly]

If you're tempted, please give us a day or two's notice. We can probably fix up quite a crowd for you.

[2R]

It would be nice for them to arrange a few fly byes to show off how quiet the turbo FANS are .no need to land just a few low passes to put everyone's mind at peace . Once they see a nice quiet stable approach they will see their is nothing to worry about the modern turbo Fans in the shiney new planes

[justwork]

I think that noise is really only a fraction of NoJets agenda. I'm all for jets at the island and I truly hope that this happens for Porter. I think the biggest hurdle is getting the runway lengthened and educating stubborn clueless people.

[Rockie]

It's not the noise or the pollution and I don't think it ever has been, it's the expanded operation that jets represent. If it were really noise and pollution the Gardiner would be gone. People don't mind the occasional C17 or even F18 because that's kinda cool right? But they don't want a large busy airport on their doorstep and everything it brings with it - jets or no jets.

[Pratt X 3]

It would be nice for them to arrange a few fly byes to show off how quiet the turbo FANS are .no need to land just a few low passes to put everyone's mind at peace . Once they see a nice quiet stable approach they will see their is nothing to worry about the modern turbo Fans in the shiney new planes

http://skiesmag.com/news/article/CSerie ... ttoToronto

"A flying display took place at Downsview with takeoff, several passes, and landing by the CS100 and alternating with the Bombardier Q400 demonstrator on an identical track and speed. These manoeuvres illustrated that the noise from the C Series is in the same magnitude as, if not quieter, than the turboprop Q400.

C Series FTV5 made two quiet passes over Toronto Billy Bishop City Centre Airport on September 10 after departing the Downsview event."

[NorOntair]

It's not the noise or the pollution and I don't think it ever has been, it's the expanded operation that jets represent. If it were really noise and pollution the Gardiner would be gone. People don't mind the occasional C17 or even F18 because that's kinda cool right? But they don't want a large busy airport on their doorstep and everything it brings with it - jets or no jets.

This is exactly the issue. It was never really about sound. It was about congestion. Some kids at the school have already almost got run over by vehicles blowing red lights go catch their flight.

On the topic of sound however, I was also grabbing a beer at a Sushi place near there after we parked our plane for the night. Porter was doing an engine run at the south end. That is pretty damn loud. The loudest has to be Deluces own personal plane though.

As for the CS... It's not as loud as NJ people make it out to be... But also no where as quiet as as others make it to be. You can flight idle anything and make it seem quiet as they did with there fly bys. (I do not know if they did that. My point is you can make anything quiet during a fly by if you have sufficient speed built up)

[PS-90A]

I would love to take a HS748 down to the Island some day, just let it idle there for hours, or taxi it around aimlessly. Followed by increasing MU-2 flights down to the Island, again, just taxiing aimlessly and doing NTS tests. Just to see what the downtowns reaction is to hearing those turboprops.

C-337 might be a good option, don't bother with the prop sync during any phase of flight

[photofly]

I would love to take a HS748 down to the Island some day, just let it idle there for hours, or taxi it around aimlessly. Followed by increasing MU-2 flights down to the Island, again, just taxiing aimlessly and doing NTS tests. Just to see what the downtowns reaction is to hearing those turboprops.

Really? Why? I can tell you what the reaction will be, and all you would achieve is to make life harder for those of us who try to be considerate pilots into and out of CYTZ. So, no thanks.

[cgzro]

In Victoria there is a search and rescue helicopter base and a few years ago multi million dollar condos were erected almost above it. The condo residents complain about search and rescue operations. So I can imagine the complaints that buisness and recreational travel must cause at the island.

[dashx]

MU2 and Jetstream both extremely quiet aircraft. And how about those Ornge machines? Just as quiet. Yup Toronto citizens know what they are supposed to complain about.

High train prices to Pearson.....

[Gino Under]

I can't help but wonder if our "Spaceman" minister mightn't be painting himself into a corner with his remarks on environmental issues at YTZ regarding a possible runway extension to help Porter receive and operate the C series?

In the French media today following BBDs certification announcement, he was asked about possibly reopening discussions with the island airport group. He said they had to consider the environmental impact on water birds and water ways.

I'm thinking some environmentalists, generally, might want to consider that comment from a couple of perspectives.

So, does he (do they) maintain status quo with Q400s, etc.? Or, does he (do they) consider the lesser environmental impact of a new technology aircraft engine, (arguably a turbo fan, not a jet) that is noticeably quieter than the dash and polluting the air with significantly less NOX gas emissions?

Not for me to say but I'd love to see the environmentalists slugging it out over a runway extension for a change.

Marc my words.
This will get more and more interesting. IF the Feds give BBD a billion in aid, it's going to be awkward for them to explain why they let an order for 25 C series get cancelled over a runway extension issue they're part of, without reconsidering that issue while supporting a company desperately in need of both the money and the sales.

Gino

[Rockie]

This will get more and more interesting. IF the Feds give BBD a billion in aid, it's going to be awkward for them to explain why they let an order for 25 C series get cancelled over a runway extension issue they're part of, without reconsidering that issue while supporting a company desperately in need of both the money and the sales.

Yup. Very hard to predict what will happen with the politics calculations unless you're privy to all the details.

[aerosexual]

I've searched but haven't found any real info on this. What would be the cost of the expansion? Who pays for it? Who benefits? What's the ROI? I honestly have a hard time believing there is a business case here but I'd like to know more, especially if the tax payer is on the hook. If the cost is as Air Canada estimates approximately $1,000,000,000, and government is on the hook, then I think there are better uses of tax payer money.

[Art Garfunkel]

I live at the end of Stadium Rd and I can tell you the landslide infrastructure is already overwhelmed. I have personally seen taxi cabs lay on the horn because school kids are crossing the road with a crossing guard.

I am not opposed to having an airline operate out of the airport but a 20 airplane operation is all that space can handle. I have also seen poor flight attendants come back to their cars with four parking tickets flapping under their wipers because of no parking available to them. People picking up love ones constantly park outside our garage entrance because there is no cell phone pick up area.

If the taxpayers or Deluce wish to give us all a million dollars for our condo's I don't see a proper fix. Plus you would have to demolish a public school, community centre, two social housing projects, and a park dedicated to the Norwegian airmen that used the airport as a training centre during the war.

Let's face it, the airport is a small regional airport not a transcontinental hub.

[Gino Under]

aero

Great point!
I should think Porter would ante up the lions share of any expansion. Think of the advantage they'd have over AC and others who've yet to decide which way the wind is blowing on this issue. Easier for the competition to dis the expansion idea than to push for it. They might have to compete with a better product. (In-flight product that is)
Toronto's BBB and Tourist Board must be anxious as well.

Toronto rate payers would have to deal with an aeroplane much quieter than what they're presently used to that's much more environmentally friendlier. Perhaps rate payers living near the CN CP Rail lines could tell us about the environmental impact of another mode of transport rarely objected to. Unless you have another Lac Megantic episode. In which case, WOW!!
Ever tried to get some zizz at 3 am when a 120 car freight train rattles by at Islington and Bloor???
Noise abatement? Say what?

I think Rockie hit the nail on the head. It's the expansion traffic the jets represent. Airports will always cause controversy and the island is always that.
Gino

[Siddley Hawker]

The billion dollars for the runway extension needs to be put into perspective. A billion represents a mere 1/37th of the amount Ontario residents have overpaid for their electrical power since the present government was elected to Queen's Park. A mere bagatelle, in other words.

[aerosexual]

Art, I agree that it's a mess on the land side by the Island Airport with traffic, taxis, etc. A lot needs to be done there to manage the flow of people and traffic.

Siddley, you raise a great point. At least this potential government "waste" might have some benefit, even if it's mainly Robert Deluce and Porter employees.

Gino, respectfully you aren't easing my concerns. You "think" Porter would ante up the lions share of the expansion, but I haven't seen that written anywhere, so I'm very skeptical as to who would pony up the tab, and consequently who would benefit from the investment, if anybody. I really don't think a proper financial analysis has been done, or at least not publicly. Perhaps the Liberals have done that and that's why they are discarding the idea completely. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit though You know what though, I live by a railway line and I agree that the noise is far worse than what the island airport produces.

[photofly]

It's a lot easier to move a park, a community centre and a school than an airport. Move them somewhere else, and turn the land into a proper drop-off/pick-up area with parking facilities.