Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

[Illya Kuryakin]

Just for shitz and giggles, let's drink the Koolaid, and put on our rose coloured glasses, and pretend that somehow Turkey felt the Russian fighter posed a threat. Which I'm certain is pure crap. But let's pretend. Okay?
To shoot aircrew, while they hang defenceless under a parachute is a bloody disgrace. A pure and total act of cowardice. A war crime.
If I was Putin, I'd retaliate. Probably not militarily. At least, I'd hope not. But retaliate, he surely must.
Illya

[Gilles Hudicourt]

But that Is not the subject. The subject is Russia intentionally entering NATO airspace.

Nice try but that is not the subject. That is just a statement you made, which may or may not be correct. The subject is Turkey shooting down a Russian aircraft.

Turkey claims it entered Turkish airspace, the Russians claims it did not. One of them is wrong. You are free to believe whichever tickles your fancy, but dont try to pass off as fact that not only they entered Turkish airspace, but they did it intentionally and maliciously.

[DonutHole]

Does it really matter what happened?

America is walking Putin like a dog. It's just a matter of time before we can walk away from the mid east so we can sit and watch Russia grind itself into the dirt fighting a war that can't be won. The trap seems pretty obvious. With shale fueling America the mid east has been rendered essentially irrelevant. Now that we dont really need their oIL, who even cares? America won the oil war and Russia basically has the mid east revolution on its doorstep

Well played America, well played.

Let Russia play the big man, and let putin spend all of the Russian big man money. I smell a deal on a faberge egg!

[crazyaviator]

He got caught, and he will get slapped again if he does the same. If a NATO jet goes into Russian airspace, it will likely get shot down as well, but we are not doing such silliness(except perhaps by mistake).

Was that little Francis Gary Powers U-2 flight a little mistake?

America and her illegal allies were making it "look" like they were going after ISIS, but the reality was not the case, they needed to harness ISIS as they did the so-called moderate rebels, to topple Assad thats all

Problem with some movements is that they grow out of their diapers and start to take less orders from mommy and daddy and create their own future

[AirMail]

I agree Cpn, ISIS must go.

Pelmet,

Thankyou for helping keep this thread on track...

A few questions that I have and make me wonder;

1) What happened or is happening to the two Russian pilots? Are the accounts of rebels shooting at them while they were still getting aquainted to the "caterpillar club" factual or are those reports propaganda?
As video showed, Turkmen rebels fired upon and killed one of them, the other resuced by Syrian army. I do find it interesting that the rebels were camera ready and ready to shoot at the rescue chopper with an american tow missile (which according to a source takes time to set up)
2) Do NATO countries have rules of engagement when faced with a threat from an NATO ally?
Good question. Turkey claims they didn't know the nationality of those jets. What if it had been our F18s? Yes I'm sure NATO have friend/foe transponders, but what if there was a malfunction? What if (going cold war here) a Russian defector?
Also the recorded warnings were barely legible. When they said they were on guard, I was waiting to hear an american voice yell "yer on Guuuaard" with multiple cat noises. Guess it's a bit more mature over there
3) Who has the advantage in a dog fight, the SU-24 or the F-16, which country has the "better" tech platform and subsequent countermeasures in what would be considered two different fighters of a relatively same vintage?
That's easy, the F16. SU24 is 70s bomber. edit- the one shot down was a SU24m-a 2000 modernized version. I'd still call it outdated imo. They now have fighter escorts to prevent another occurrence
All the best,
TPC

Interesting to note as well from the interview of the Russian pilot that they were unaware of being warned and were in straight level flight at the time. Maybe the tech on the SU24 isn't so great?

[Ypilot]

ISIS must go... but Assad stays.

General Sir David Richards says Cameron aim of dealing with Isis and getting rid of president at same time ‘not plausible’

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... tary-chief

[AuxBatOn]

There needs to be a bit of analysis and a bit of putting yourself in people's shoes to understand what might have happened:

1- What did the pilots perceived they did? Did they perceived they crossed into Turkey? From the interview with the Weapons System Officer, no. Is it because of the accuracy of instrumentation? Was there GPS Jamming degrading their navigation solution? Was there GPS Spoofing making them believe they were into Syria when in fact, they strayed into Turkey? Were they doing other things like conducting an attack and momentarily lost track of their exact position?

2- What did Turkey perceived the SU-24 did? From their account, the SU-24 crossed into Turkey for 17 seconds. How accurate is the ground radar providing the information? We are talking no kidding less than 1 nm into Turkey (by taking the Turkish radar picture).

3- Did Turkey actually broadcast warnings? By their account yes. Was it on the right frequency? 121.5? 243.0? Military Guard is 243.0. Maybe they were broadcasting on 121.5, a frequency not normally monitored by military aircraft?

4- Did the SU-24 receive the warnings? By the WSO's account, no. Were they monitoring 243.0? My UHF radios do automatically but I will disable the feature sometimes because of interference. Could have that happened?

So, was it a matter of perception? Or was is a matter of execution? Did Turkey perceive something that actually wasn't? Or did the SU-24 botch the execution of its mission by penetrating a sovereign country?

Don't be so quick at throwing spears. We do not have all the facts and will likely never have them all. There are far more variables involved than most of you would think of.

[Ypilot]

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/world/turke ... -1.3334096

"Sometimes immediately after [an incident] accounts differ," said Stéfanie von Hlatky, director of the Centre for International and Defence Policy at Queen's University in Kingston, Ont.

Turkey said the Russian Su-24 bomber flying over Syria ignored 10 warnings that it was nearing, then intruding, on Turkish airspace. Russia insisted its plane stayed in Syrian territory.

Every NATO country, including Turkey, has its own rules of engagement for dealing with airspace violations, von Hlatky said, but standard operating procedures for Turkey would be similar to those of other countries.

Those operating procedures would dictate that Turkey should first "attempt to open channels of communication with the aircraft" from the ground if it enters a "buffer zone," she said. In this case, the buffer zone would start in Syrian territory about eight kilometres away from the Turkish border.

If the aircraft didn't respond after several attempts, von Hlatky said, the next step would be to scramble military jets to try to make contact in the air. That could include sending signals recognized by pilots, she said.

If communication still isn't established with the offending plane, military aircraft would try to "escort" it to the ground — essentially forcing it to land.

That could include sending signals recognized by pilots...

image.jpg (21.47 KiB) Viewed 1376 times

[Gilles Hudicourt]

http://news.yahoo.com/turkey-temporaril ... 28912.html

Turkey 'temporarily' suspends Syria air strikes after Russia spat

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/622 ... ish-border

RUSSIAN jets have carried out more than 130 sorties across Syria in just the three days since one of their warplanes was downed, striking 450 targets including the border with Turkey in an act of retribution.

So Turkey can no longer do airstrikes in Syria and the Turkey backed Turkmen rebels in Syria are getting bombed more than before.

What did Turkey achieve ?

[Ypilot]

So who's right? Russia or Turkey?

Belgian Physicists Calculate that Everyone Is Lying About the Downed Russian Jet

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/belgia ... ussian-jet

[2R]

I will wait until the AWACs and Satellite Intel is public becomes available before comment about where the actual deed was done.
My wag is that they will not show what the AWACS in that area at the time of the shoot down saw. Maybe some of the F-15 sent to support the Turks might have seen something if they were in the air .
The AWACs will have the facts.

Do they not teach Turkish pilots how to intercept and interdict ? Are they not taught to Identify aircraft and escort them ? Is the shoot first and whine second going to be the new normal ? Are the Turks too scared to get close to another aircraft . They would rather shoot it down rather than get close and use accepted intercept procedures ? I suppose this means they can expect the same courtesy from the Russians when they get back in the air ,or maybe Greece will shoot down the Turks the next time they fly over Greece . over twenty two hundred incursions in Greek airspace in the last year.


Deja Vu all over again. Just weeks after Putin said this will not be another Afghanistan .A Russian helicopter is destroyed by a weapon supplied in a black ops supporting " Rebels" . Very clever of them to use an anti -tank weapon to destroy a helicopter on a rescue mission.

The shooting of the pilots in parachutes begs the question : Why is the West supplying weapons to any group who is not a signature to the Geneva convention ? AGAIN !

[Moose47]

G'day

"Why is the West supplying weapons to any group who is not a signature to the Geneva convention?"

When did that ever stop the Russians or Chinese from doing the same thing?

Cheers...Chris

[crazyaviator]

Why is the West supplying weapons to any group who is not a signature to the Geneva convention ? AGAIN !

A little naive are we? The west or the east will do ANYTHING it thinks it can get away with to hell with rules. Most of us pee-ons do not have a clue how the elite work and perhaps that is a good thing

How about googling the death count for clinton or bush or obama

[Ypilot]

G'day

"Why is the West supplying weapons to any group who is not a signature to the Geneva convention?"

When did that ever stop the Russians or Chinese from doing the same thing?

Cheers...Chris

US, UK and other countries have been fueling the war against Assad for four years.

Russia has been an ally to Syrian government for a long time and did not intervene in the conflict until recently, they have been supplying weapons to the Syrian regime so that they could keep their naval facility in Tartus, a strategic port for the Russians.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-22906965
http://www.businessinsider.com/obama-ad ... ls-2012-12
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... er-1266487
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... pment.html

[PS-90A]

On 3 October 2015 a United States Air Force AC-130U gunship attacked the Kunduz Trauma Centre operated by Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) (English name: Doctors Without Borders) in the city of Kunduz, in the province of the same name in northern Afghanistan. It has been reported that at least 30 people were killed and over 30 were injured

Interesting you brought that up. The USA has just admitted that it was a mistake, and a profuse apology is likely in the works. Compare that to the Russian-backed downing of the passenger jet.

http://www.wideasleepinamerica.com/2013 ... t-655.html

[PS-90A]

FWIW Russia says it was shot at 1 km from the border and crashed 4km inside syria. Ain't Physics a bitch

Yep, the missile was fired while it was over Turkish territory, but didn't hit it until it had left Turkish airspace:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34912581

Russia has published an alternative track for the plane showing it was nowhere near Turkish airspace. However it seems a little unlikely that Turkey would do something that dumb with NATO permission. Russia doesn't exactly have a good record of accurate reporting.

Please share a link to a source containing Russia's "inaccurate reporting records". You seem very certain about the accuracy of Turkish reports, or is it just your personal believes?

[PS-90A]

The Russians crossed less than 2 mile of airspace. Yet Turkey claims 5 mins? Pretty sure it wasn't an airship the Russians were flying. Did Russia provoke, sure, perhaps not intentional given the look at the rest of the flight path. Was the Turkey shooting justified? Absolutely not! The rebels killing the pilots makes them everyday thugs, glad our country is supporting thugs and a trigger happy nation

No, they said 17 seconds. The 5 minutes you are referring to is how long they were given warnings *before* entering Turkish airspace.

Russia are the real thugs here, believing they can invade other countries, work with rebels who then shoot down airliners full of passengers, and lie about it all. It might be a small incursion, but Turkey has the right to defend their airspace, and their people. (Part of the reason for them shooting down the plane is that Russia was bombing Turkman civilians in Syria, rather than or as well as ISIS).

The Turkmen shooting the pilot is unfortunate and dumb, although if someone is bombing your people you'd probably do the same. The Turkmen are one of the few rebel groups (along with Kurds) who we should definitely be helping rather than bombing.

In 2012, the Syrians shot down a Turkish jet which had entered its airspace, and Erdoğan’s furious response at the time was that “a short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack”.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/n ... k-galeotti

[xchox]

In 2012, the Syrians shot down a Turkish jet which had entered its airspace, and Erdoğan’s furious response at the time was that “a short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack”.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/n ... k-galeotti

Great Article. Pretty much sums up how I look at it.

Off-Topic... PS-90A, Did you or do you fly Russian Iron?

[CpnCrunch]

Please share a link to a source containing Russia's "inaccurate reporting records". You seem very certain about the accuracy of Turkish reports, or is it just your personal believes?

This has been pretty widely reported. See for example:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-12/i ... ia/6692318

I don't have any particular beliefs about Turkey. They're dumb and totalitarian, but I think they're not quite dumb enough to shoot down a Russian jet based on fabricated evidence.

[mileagejunkie]

Lots of uneducated, russophobic comments here.A word of advice, read real information, other than Main Streem Medias spun,twisted and completely fabricated garbage, you migh astually learn a thing or two.
Here are a few facts for you.
Assads government is legitimately elected,with over 80%vote in favour.
Russia was asked by Syria to help with Isis, they're there legally as per international law......no one else.
Russia is actually been doing lots of damage to Isis, whilst Americans been dropping flyers, warning Isis fighter when they're going to bomb them,so they can escape....
The list goes on.

Do yourselves a favour and have a good look at RT.com Lots of stuff that will open some eyes.