PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

[medi-whacked]

They should be held accountable for either allowing a culture of intimidation in their company, or just plain incompetence.

This young pilot is gone forever, these people should be tried in court and if convicted put in jail forever.

. ..

Also --- I've never read any calls for criminal justice in response to any other previous accident situations on this site, that I can recall. And there have been a number with very questionable judgement by different parties, at least going by the official accident reports.

Perhaps . is suggesting it's time to make companies accountable for their actions? Not entirely sure that he's incorrect on that score?
Companies have a great deal of influence over the younger pilots. Training bonds and the like can be pretty intimidating.
Too bad he feels the need to delete his post.
He may have a point. Question is, who to prosecute?
One way or another, this just has to stop.
Illya

I do believe that all aviation companies have an "accountable executive" That might be a good place to start with a prosecution. No?

[pelmet]

How about we prosecute those who call for prosecution of prople with absolutely no detailed evidence of what happened or any useful info at all.

[co-joe]

At one company I worked for not too long ago, we had a policy that if one person turned around OR said no to a flight for weather, we'd ground the fleet and have a scotch, that way we'd all be grounded for the day. This policy was enforced whether it was the most experienced pilot or the least experienced pilot, no matter the cargo, passenger or client, and the system worked very well.

E

You'd only have to threaten me with Scotch and I'd be running away screaming. Yuck!


Seriously though, Its interesting how difficult it is to say no, even though you know you should, but what a relief it is when someone else makes the decision for you.

[Gorgons]

Yeah sounds great, all for one, one for all!

Until your working for an outfit that works with a performance based pay scheme. No pressure at all knowing your decision is going to cost the rest of the guys money! Sorry but unless everybody is on a flat salary with no performance bonuses i.e. milage etc that plan isn't going to ease any pressure to go at all.

[Illya Kuryakin]

How about we prosecute those who call for prosecution of prople with absolutely no detailed evidence of what happened or any useful info at all. Or better yet go move to some shthole third world country where your type of thinking is the reason why they are a shthole third world country.

Look who's calling the kettle black....
Illya

[digits_]

At one company I worked for not too long ago, we had a policy that if one person turned around OR said no to a flight for weather, we'd ground the fleet and have a scotch, that way we'd all be grounded for the day. This policy was enforced whether it was the most experienced pilot or the least experienced pilot, no matter the cargo, passenger or client, and the system worked very well.

E

Doesn't that increase the pressure on the "new guy" enormously ? If he doesn't want to fly he grounds the whole fleet ? I know PRM's who have issues grounding one plane and it's their job

Also, do all your pilots and your whole fleet fly to the same destination ?

I'm glad it worked for you, but I wouldn't want to have a system like that in that form.

[CPLMike89]

Just got to work, I'm flying the Caravan today. Checked the weather -FZDZ and moderate mixed icing SFC to 2500 for the whole day. I've been at work for 5 minutes in that time I've cancelled all flights and our CSA is busy rescheduling everything because TOMORROW IS ANOTHER DAY. Do I feel pressure? sure, Do I feel I have to fly? nope, I have too much to lose and nothing to gain by flying around under the ceiling picking up ice hoping it'll pass. The perceived pressure we feel is just that, PERCEIVED take a step back and look at the big picture.

Mike

[esp803]

I've made a lot of money on performance based flying, and I always asked for a paycut and to be put on salary (and they never went for it). Performance based flying has no place in aviation and should be illegal for that very reason. We flew all charter flying and all of our clients were happy to wait a day if we felt concerned about safety. I was the low timer with about 4k hours in the area at the time.

E

[Maynard]

Seriously though, Its interesting how difficult it is to say no, even though you know you should, but what a relief it is when someone else makes the decision for you.

The sooner you realize this is BS, IT'S NOT DIFFICULT!!! Maybe once you have a wife/kids on the back of your mind, you'll never have to worry about putting yourself in a situation which your kids may not have a parent anymore.
Show me a report or something that says "The company pressured the pilot to fly in bad conditions and take the blame for his death". I doubt it. I've only read "The pilot's decision to fly in.....etc"
Just say FUCKING NO!!!!

[Illya Kuryakin]

Ah, the pressure. Seriously? Are we still playing that card? Just go have a coffee/scotch, depending on the time of day, and RELAX! Leave the keys in the airplane for the next guy....simple.
As Spock would say..."Live long, and prosper...."
Illya

[rigpiggy]

They should be held accountable for either allowing a culture of intimidation in their company, or just plain incompetence.

This young pilot is gone forever, these people should be tried in court and if convicted put in jail forever.

. ..

Question is, who to prosecute?
One way or another, this just has to stop.
Illya

Last place I was at I complained to the owner, dom, qa, cp, dfo about bad maintenance. At the end of the day in an accident I would be legally responsible. The TC CAIRS is useless as I would just be informing on myself and I can't afford the fine."have a friend in similar state" he informed and TC fined him. At the end of the day, have voice recorder on your phone, tape all conversations, take photos of incriminating paperwork, document everything with an email to yourself, refuse unsafe work and be prepared to fight a "wrongful dismissal suit"

Stay Safe everyone, Merry Chriswanzukkah

Pig

[timel]

Last place I was at I complained to the owner, dom, qa, cp, dfo about bad maintenance. At the end of the day in an accident I would be legally responsible.

Yep, there is no such thing like an "accountable manager", the PIC is responsible, period. You get a license so you can sign your name in the logbook and take responsibility.

The TC CAIRS is useless as I would just be informing on myself and I can't afford the fine."have a friend in similar state" he informed and TC fined him.

Ha ha WHAT!
Better use SECURITAS : http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/securitas/index.asp

[Illya Kuryakin]

That's the sad truth in this industry. You turned the key.
Illya

[lownslow]

I must have gotten lucky; my very first day on the line at my very first 703 job I walked through the door in the morning knowing we had a whole province of FZRA, walked up to my Captain and asked if we were still going to Toronto. "Pfff, no," he said as he walked past me and out the door to spend the day with his kids. Made sense then and it's probably contributed to getting me to now.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
Know when to run....
Illya

[trey kule]

I posted this on another thread TWO WEEKS AGO.

I must explain, that when I read anything about pilots flying in prolonged icing I go to max torque.

And I dont think I took your " long flights in icing" out of context.

There are youngins on here who have posted that they feel it is perfectly OK to fly in icing conditions , just to experience them. So yes, when someone posts about long flights in icing conditions I get kinda revved up. Nothing personal. Just my own way of hopefully instiling some common sense in the less experienced. If one says it is OK....that is all they hear. Not it is OK under certain circumstances.

If I knew how to post a picture, I would post the picture of the Caravan that crashed just outside yellowknife last winter..Icing kills. And the Caravan in particular is both very susceptable to it, and because it is not pressurized, its exit options can be limited.

The whole FIKI thing on small aircraft is an open invitation to those who really dont understand the danger to just try it. And if they get away with it, it just makes them bolder the next time

What is it going to take to get you young pilots to understand the simple concept that you avoid icing conditions. This is not a make believe game you can reset if things dont go well. This whole "pressure" is pure BS. If you operate Caravans, have your company safety officer enlarge and print up the Tindi,Gogal, and soon this one and post them where dispatch people, and anyone who gives you any problem can see them. Use your brains. You dont need to "experience" icing conditions.

Sigh......another young aviator dead. Seen so many in my career.

[magic wand]

I have a thought/question? Is the Caravan the problem or it is how the caravan is equipped..modern avionics, auto-pilot top of the line GPS system.
And is it how most caravan pilots are trained - IFR certified and usually some sort of flight safety type of course under their belt.

There was mention in an earlier post about how in the old days you didn't see otters and beavers out in this weather in the old days. Maybe it was because they were not IFR equipped and the pilots were not IFR rated.

There is an old saying - "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there isn't any old bold pilots" Maybe that saying came about because of the "learning curve"

Another thought - maybe the caravan should lose the IFR certification - make it a day vfr aircraft and remove the autopilot. I bet you would see less risk taking.

I fix em not fly em..but I do see allot of young cocky pilots in way over their heads on this aircraft.

[trey kule]

The caravan,in my opinion , has two issues.
The first is it is not pressurized, and thus tends to, once entering icing condtions, remain in them, which eventually overwhelms the aircraft's capabilities.

The second is it is flown, in many cases by inexperienced pilots, who have no real understanding of just how dangerous icing is, how quickly it can go from dipping your toe in it, to the plane literalyl just falling out of the sky. So instead of not flying at all, they just go out to "have a look", get into some icing, and then instead of doing a 180, continue on...

When an accident occurs out comes the tired old excuse that they felt pressured. Maybe true in the idd case but for most is purely just an excuse to avoid taking responsability for a bad decision. Non SMS reports...no written complaints...before an incident...

Icing training is totally inadequate. The ground icing course is a joke. And if you read old threads you will see how the special stupids rationalize using non approved fluids, have no idea of temperature or mix ratios, and use everything from a little garden spraying, to wiping the wings sith an alcohol soaked rag...

More than you asked for. It is time TC stopped just checking companies to see that the pilots had taken some little course and got signed off, and actually see if they know anything, and the companynis actually doing things properly.

[oldtimer]

According to Ice Pilots NWT, it appears Buffalo uses a mop soaked in ??? to de-ice airplanes. At least that is what I saw on the TV program.

[Illya Kuryakin]

The Caravan is one of the best airplanes ever built, if used for their intended purpose.
Absolutely reliable. Extremely easy to fly. Far more capable than the pilots who fly them. I'd take a Caravan anywhere, in any weather. Very good IFR platform. Great visability. It has one flaw. One caveat. A chink in its armour, if you will. This is ICE! The Caravan will bite your ass in ICE. The Caravan has only one defence against ICE. This is the ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY DEGREE TURN. RIGHT FAAKEN NOW!
Any questions?
Oh, and The Bahamas. That works to.
Illya