New Leaf (ULCC) starts February 12

[esp803]

That is one SLOW, clunky website. And they don't show up on the major travel websites (expedia, kayak...) I wish them luck....

E

[Viper32]

What pilots are transitioning to that company to fly for them i dont see any hiring section up about pilot hiring or anything unless someone can correct me !!!

[FighterPilot]

The website is definitely nothing fancy. In the press conference just now at YWG they said they weren't listing themselves on expedia and kayak etc. to avoid paying listing fees to them and keep costs down. While I wish them all the best, you won't see me applying to a place like them anytime soon.

[iflyroads]

They even charge for a carry on bag. It might just end up working to the same price as other carriers.

[HiLo]

If you send your bags by Canada Post or FedEx ground a week or so early, it could save you a fair bit (assuming you aren't going skiing and there's nothing overly expensive in your bag).

[200hr Wonder]

I tried to see what a flight YWG - YXX would cost, but as soon as I hit book I get 404 not found. So I could not compare with all taxes and fees, but I looked YWG - YLW on AC, WestJet and NewLeaf as close as possible. To be fair you can not go direct YWG - YLW, but then again I seeing as NewLeaf's site is broken I could not do an apples to apples comparison on a routes that both go direct.

Lets assume that it is just me flying. I have a carry on, and a checked bag. I will have a soft drink and a "premium" snack on the airplane. As this new airline is directly aimed at cost conscious consumer I selected the cheapest flight from everyone with out regard to time of day. The route is YWG - YYC - YLW for AC and WestJet, however a layover for this type of consumer is generally not that big of a deal, again cheap is the key. I will take a carry on bag that will go in the overhead. Being that I HATE to sit in the middle I will choose a seat.

NewLeaf AirCanada WestJet
Base Fare
$89 $271 $257
Carry on Bag
$25 $0 $0
Seat Selection
$10 $0 $0
Snack and Drink
$5 $3 $3
Total
$129 $274 $260

Not bad looks like I saved $145 dollars. Though that is just an illusion, if you make a mistake and forget your boarding pass, $10, if you are unable to make the ticket booking online, $15. And this one is a great one, you get to the gate and your carry on does not quite fit in the sizing device, $80. You want a seat at the front half of the cabin after you get to the airport to find you in the middle $20. All things that can do and will happen a lot. And your "cheap" $129 flight is now $254, not quite as much as the other guys, but that is based on the introductory $89 fight which we all know will not last. I sure as heck hope that they make this information abundantly clear when you go and book that all you get is a seat and a seat belt or they will have some seriously pissed off passengers. It was not all that clear on what those fees where when I looked at the website. It is under the heading "How to save" which to mean wold be where I would look for current flights on sale. Lastly and this is pretty interesting. You depart YWG or YLW and it fogs out, which happens fairly often in YLW so are diverted to YYC, the crew is time out and you are not going to make it to YLW till tomorrow you get nothing.

From their website:

NewLeaf Travel and its service provider carrier are not liable for room, board and ground transportation or any connecting flight if a flight is delayed or diverted due to weather conditions. Passenger will be transported from diverted point to their original destination on the carrier’s next available flight.

So I see a whole pile of people how are going to get upset with them. I sure hope that they have the boarding processes figured out to charge for the carry on or it could take HOURS to get on board. Best of luck but ULCC has stripped the service and taken any ounce of pleasure out of flying that they are generally despised. Outfits like Spirit and Allegient only work int he US because of the population and under-serviced routes. How many people want to go YWG - YLW anyway? If it was popular enough to warrant it you can bet WestJet would have tried to put a 737 on it years ago. So alas I don't think this is going to work.

Then again 20 years ago an upstart with a couple of 737-200s out of Calgary started up against two incumbent carries and look where they are now.

[simon76]

I see a parallel, with the new low cost car rental places that keep popping up.

Its a pain in the ass as they are off airport and you have to shuttle, but its worth it because you are only paying 10 bucks a day for the rental.

Wait, they harass you for proof of liability, which likely you don't have this with you, so now pay $24 per day for insurance coverage etc. You pretty much feel like you have been taken hostage. You are on unfamiliar grounds and have places you need to be, and need those wheels!

I will never book with sleazy companies that nickel and dime. I wont ever put up with being taken advantage of in that vulnerable situation such as arriving at the gate and finding out now I pay the fee, or else!

I am happy to fly the AC and Westjet brands, sorry newleaf I don't really see a future with you.

[Old fella]

I understand they are partnered with Flair Air which(according to Flair website) 5 B737-400. I didn't know Flair had that many or are plans to lease to support this new scheduled airline. I notice they are in our neck of woods(YHZ) with daily to Hamilton connecting points further west on their route structure. Be interesting to see from Halifax with the mix of AC mainline, JAZZ, WJ, Encore and Porter all heading westbound. Best of luck and hope it all works out..........

[Marinth]

I tried to see what a flight YWG - YXX would cost, but as soon as I hit book I get 404 not found. So I could not compare with all taxes and fees, but I looked YWG - YLW on AC, WestJet and NewLeaf as close as possible. To be fair you can not go direct YWG - YLW, but then again I seeing as NewLeaf's site is broken I could not do an apples to apples comparison on a routes that both go direct.

Lets assume that it is just me flying. I have a carry on, and a checked bag. I will have a soft drink and a "premium" snack on the airplane. As this new airline is directly aimed at cost conscious consumer I selected the cheapest flight from everyone with out regard to time of day. The route is YWG - YYC - YLW for AC and WestJet, however a layover for this type of consumer is generally not that big of a deal, again cheap is the key. I will take a carry on bag that will go in the overhead. Being that I HATE to sit in the middle I will choose a seat.

NewLeaf AirCanada WestJet
Base Fare
$89 $271 $257
Carry on Bag
$25 $0 $0
Seat Selection
$10 $0 $0
Snack and Drink
$5 $3 $3
Total
$129 $274 $260

Not bad looks like I saved $145 dollars. Though that is just an illusion, if you make a mistake and forget your boarding pass, $10, if you are unable to make the ticket booking online, $15. And this one is a great one, you get to the gate and your carry on does not quite fit in the sizing device, $80. You want a seat at the front half of the cabin after you get to the airport to find you in the middle $20. All things that can do and will happen a lot. And your "cheap" $129 flight is now $254, not quite as much as the other guys, but that is based on the introductory $89 fight which we all know will not last. I sure as heck hope that they make this information abundantly clear when you go and book that all you get is a seat and a seat belt or they will have some seriously pissed off passengers. It was not all that clear on what those fees where when I looked at the website. It is under the heading "How to save" which to mean wold be where I would look for current flights on sale. Lastly and this is pretty interesting. You depart YWG or YLW and it fogs out, which happens fairly often in YLW so are diverted to YYC, the crew is time out and you are not going to make it to YLW till tomorrow you get nothing.

From their website:

NewLeaf Travel and its service provider carrier are not liable for room, board and ground transportation or any connecting flight if a flight is delayed or diverted due to weather conditions. Passenger will be transported from diverted point to their original destination on the carrier’s next available flight.

So I see a whole pile of people how are going to get upset with them. I sure hope that they have the boarding processes figured out to charge for the carry on or it could take HOURS to get on board. Best of luck but ULCC has stripped the service and taken any ounce of pleasure out of flying that they are generally despised. Outfits like Spirit and Allegient only work int he US because of the population and under-serviced routes. How many people want to go YWG - YLW anyway? If it was popular enough to warrant it you can bet WestJet would have tried to put a 737 on it years ago. So alas I don't think this is going to work.

Then again 20 years ago an upstart with a couple of 737-200s out of Calgary started up against two incumbent carries and look where they are now.

You have conveniently forgotten that both WestJet and air Canada charge for your first checked bag, and advanced seat selection. Bring a proper sized carry on,get your boarding pass online (because it's 2016), and don't buy a snack onboard. AC and WestJet both won't pay for weather delays eithe . I have a night spent in an airport over the holidays to attest to that fact.

[Married a Canadian]

Ryanair and Easyjet made it work in Europe (different populations I know)...but it does prove that people get used to the stripped down concept of air travel. Ryanair in particular ALWAYS cop a huge amount of abuse..but still manage to fly the most passengers and until recently stay the most profitable.

It will be interesting to see how this model adopts to the Canadian market. Passengers will get upset for sure...but if they have it ALL covered in the small print...you can't complain.

[DanWEC]

Why have there been so many failed attempts at cut rate airlines that make people miserable? I'd rather pay for a bit more convenience.

Two pretty successful startups offered a better service, not a worse one. Westjet and Porter... I think they're still around....

[I WAS Birddog]

Low Cost Carrier...
Ultra Low Cost Carrier...

I wonder what will the next generation be termed...Subatomic Low Cost Carrier?



I wish the folks at New Leaf and everyone under their employ the best. I hope it is successful

[loopa]

Razor thin profit margins. Sounds like so much fun. Watch WJ match them for a few months and party will be over.

Margins are far too thin in the airline business for a marketing company to hire a separate airline to do the flying for them.

WJ entertained the idea very briefly in the Spring of 95, in an era of $20 oil, and had discussions on the subject with JR and BL, who,at that time were joined at the hip. It took a couple of hours meeting at the Shell Aerocentre in YYC and running the number thru a model to indicate it would have no chance of success.

The idea is to recapture margin, not give it away to an ACMI operation.

Greyhound figured this out the hard way.

The other key mistake being made is to make bases on the basis of where it is convenient, not on the basis of opportunity. Kelowna is a wonderful place, but not a place I'd ever consider as a base for a passenger air service.

As for YHM? WJ has operated there for 15+ years. They know a little something about that market. If there were greater opportunity there, they'd have taken advantage of it long ago.

Other than cheaper labor, which will change the moment unions get involved at Flair, they don't have a cost driver that is cheaper than WJ. They need stage length adjusted costs to be 30% below the current lowest cost operator. I doubt they are more than 10%, but they have probably convinced themselves it's more than that. I see that all the time in these sorts of startups.

Is the plan to lose a little on each seat but make it up on volume and sell future capacity to pay today's bills? We've seen that too. Paging Jetsgo.....

BL at KFC knows where his bread is buttered. He has an excellent relationship with WJA. He won't jeopardize that deal by touching JR's old, maintenance pig 737-400's. That is going to cause JR all kinds of operational and reliability issues.

Just wait till those old birds have to start flying 10 hours a day, 7 days a week with compensatory revenues. I sure hope Flair has 90 days of operating cash from New Leaf tucked away in a bank somewhere....

New Leaf are trying to short cut their way into the business.

ACMI deals have never worked in the past and I see nothing here to suggest that will change anytime soon.

I feel sorry for investors who will subsidize cheap airfares for a few months before losing it all.

Sometimes it's just best to walk away from a dumb idea..

You certainly make some valid inferences based on how things have gone in the past. To put some of your concerns at ease, one of the biggest hurdles that delayed the New Leaf flying at Flair was the funding. I believe the managers are smart in that they won't take on any flying without some generous upfront funding of the program. It sounds like this has sorted itself out for the most part. Whether this ends up being a short term or long term tenure, the impact it would have on Flair is alike any other charter/ACMI program. If the customer continues, Flair makes money prior to brake release, if the customer doesn't continue, it frees aircraft up to do other flying. To my understanding, Flair won't pursue an avenue of flying today in anticipation of tomorrow's funds. If the advance-funding ends, then I would imagine so would this partnership. Don't forget as well that there's another 8 years left on the Shell program (granted they don't cancel this given today's Economy). Granted that bread and butter stream of income continues, plus 737's that are wholly owned by the company, it puts the company at a financial advantage to take on higher risk tenures like New Leaf. Also I don't know if this is old news, but Flair has had its own maintenance for a while now. From my knowledge, the maintenance is no longer provided by KFC. At the end of the day, there's a special relationship between BL and JR that takes them back many years. And it's my guess that long time friends and business partners as such will not let a venture like New Leaf get the better of them. Like Greg Saretsky claims, "competition makes us stronger." So I'd like to hope Greg speaks with integrity and won't take it out on KFC solely due to BL and JR being friends...

It looks however as if there will be a serious need for 737 drivers if this program goes nuts. This is a good thing as I hear another reduction bid is in order at C.North... once Transat flying comes to an end

[Longtimer]

I understand they are partnered with Flair Air which(according to Flair website) 5 B737-400. I didn't know Flair had that many or are plans to lease to support this new scheduled airline. I notice they are in our neck of woods(YHZ) with daily to Hamilton connecting points further west on their route structure. Be interesting to see from Halifax with the mix of AC mainline, JAZZ, WJ, Encore and Porter all heading westbound. Best of luck and hope it all works out..........

The existing Flair 737 Fleet.

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/C ... c&m=%7c%7c

Common Name

Model Name

Serial Number

Owner

Owner Regist. Since

C-FLDX Boeing 737-408 24804 Flair Airlines Ltd 2013-09-17
C-FLEJ Boeing 737-4B3 24751 Flair Airlines Ltd 2009-01-30
C-FLEN Boeing 737-4K5 24769 Flair Airlines Ltd 2009-12-04
C-FLER Boeing 737-46B 24573 Flair Airlines Ltd 2009-05-07
C-FLHJ Boeing 737-4Q8 25104 Flair Airlines Ltd 2015-01-08

[North Shore]

To be a wet blanket: I cant see this going long-term at all..the loonie is down again this morning, and Canadian oil has sunk to a new low. There's not enough employed bums to fill all of the seats on offer. A couple of bad passenger experiences will hit the news ( and there will be - its a start-up, after all) and that will be the end - do not pass (jets)Go, and do not collect $200.

[edited to add: two threads on this topic now merged]

[loopa]

To be a wet blanket: I cant see this going long-term at all..the loonie is down again this morning, and Canadian oil has sunk to a new low. There's not enough employed bums to fill all of the seats on offer. A couple of bad passenger experiences will hit the news ( and there will be - its a start-up, after all) and that will be the end - do not pass (jets)Go, and do not collect $200.

Yeah I don't know what to say here. I thought New Leaf was going to end up with their own fleet and was solely using Flair for the start up/interim phase... time will tell I guess.

[DanJ]

I wonder why Flair wouldn't have just done this themselves if there was a need.

[AirMail]

One ugly livery they have. Must be part of the discount to have pre-schoolers draw up the design.

[FICU]

Horrid livery! Puke yellow... How could they have approved that?

[Meatservo]

Horrid livery! Puke yellow... How could they have approved that?

If your puke is bright yellow, I am worried about you.