Ski landings, wheel, or three point?

[PilotDAR]

During a discussion, a colleague stated his thoughts about wheel or three point landings being preferable while flying taildraggers on skis. Any thoughts out there for preference and reasoning?

[skymarc]

Three point,
you want as slow speed as possible and the snow creates a lot of drag so you want the tail low and close to the ground.

[fleet16b]

*delete*

[cgzro]

yes probably always 3 pt or tail very low no forward stick at td. I doubt a 2 pt and stick it with forward stick would be wise on anything but ice or hard snow. It you tried to 2 pt and push to stick it on and a ski burried you'd possibly ground loop or end up on your back.

[springlocked]

Damn -- I guess things change - we always landed 2 point from cub to DC3 and everything in between. Much better control -- even taxi except when coming to the final stop the tail ski was in the air, especially in deep snow and slush conditions.

[Cat Driver]

Damn -- I guess things change - we always landed 2 point from cub to DC3 and everything in between. Much better control -- even taxi except when coming to the final stop the tail ski was in the air, especially in deep snow and slush conditions.

Yup, same here and for many thousands of hours.

But apparently we were taught wrong and did it wrong.

[cgzro]

Well I'm willing to learn

I have 1200hrs tail dragger but only about 10 of those on snow/skis. I will certainly defer to experts on snow.

Must say I'm surprised, did you do a tail low 2 point, or an honest to goodness stick it on 2 pointer even on deep powder?

[tractor driver]

2 point always.PA-18, C-180 / 185, M-7, DHC-2, DHC-3T, etc.,
Last thing down in the snow, and 1st thing up is the tail. Still training this way in 2016, so not all is lost Cat.


g

[crazyaviator]

A 3 pointer will provide less elevator authority and less forward visibility and less ability to react to either a necessary turn, abort or testing snow depth, slush or friction! Do i need to have thousands of hours to intuitively know this? or is 5 hrs on skis sufficient?

[PilotDAR]

Wanting some more insight, from a background of lots of experience, I phoned Steve at Atlee Dodge. Steve left no doubt in my mind that wheel landings were much preferred on skis, other than if you're committed to land and stop in a short distance, regardless of snow conditions, or really knew the surface well. Steve told me that three pointing can drive the tail ski through any crust, and make it into an anchor, with the risk of "twirking" the rear fuselage. He spoke as though he'd fixed a few

I followed up with calls to two other experienced bush pilots, who both said that they would prefer wheel landings on skis over three point if the surface is uncertain, as you have better control and visibility, and can get a better sense of the surface, without being committed to stop. They both told me that if the skiway was of very certain, known condition, either technique would be okay, as long as it was right for the aircraft type.

I have come to like wheel landings, and default to that technique for all taildraggers I fly, unless there is a compelling reason to three point. While flying the Super Cub clone on skis for the first time the other day, wheel landings just seemed natural, and worked perfectly well. But, the words of the wise are still of interest to me, hence my post....

[cgzro]

Just curious ... there are really a few ways to wheel land. You can fly it on and stick it on or you can come in tail low with no forward stick at touch down.

Is the conventional wisdom that its ok to fly it on and stick it on with forward sick vs a tail low 2 pointer with no forward stick to stick it down and lift the tail?

I can see that keeping the tail out of the power makes sense but I am surprised that forward stick to stick it on with the tail high is safer than a tail low 2 pointer?

Certain don't want to argue with those with real powder snow experience (compared to my measly 10 hours or so) but it just seems so counter intuitive.

Peter

[crazyaviator]

experienced bush pilots, who both said that they would prefer wheel landings on skis over three point if the surface is uncertain, as you have better control and visibility, and can get a better sense of the surface, without being committed to stop.

it doesnt take a 20 thousand hour ski pilot to figure that one out !!! To me, 3 pointers are for SHORT field and gusty crosswind landings, when necessary, in the summer. For very short fields, you increase power to slow down , but that leaves you with a very high nose attitude,,,, so what do you do with a taildragger in summer/winter,,,, do you increase power to full to get a 3 pointer ? of course, this should only be done with stunt pilots on TV at an airshow

[TeePeeCreeper]

Two point for the first approch/light "drag" to test the intended landing surface always. (Unless landing at a well packed established (ie: "known) "strip". After you've done that... It's up to you!

[tractor driver]

Hey PilotDAR,
another thing we do is bring yellow glasses as in hunting or safety glasses, for flat light conditions. Works the same as ski goggles for picking up irregularities in the surface. "Wheeling" it on, has numerous advantages, most of which have been listed above. Drifts,ect. are best encountered on the mains with control, with the tail ski down @ the end basically to park. The suspension in the main gear can absorb quite a bit without throwing the aircraft back into the air. I've bent a few tail skis breaking through a crust or slush late in the season when they catch the surface. You want to keep them away from the snow as long as possible. Wheel skis are more fun, with some aircraft you can have the wheels partially down to add to breaking / controllability, but that's a fine line for experienced pilots. We used to play that in Labrador landing on sand bars. (covered in snow of course).
Always do the slush test 1st to an unknown area. A touch and go then survey your tracks.
If possible, after landing, circle around and stop on your tracks to get going again easier.
There's quite a few differences when you're out on your own on skis. If I had more time I'd type more, but got to go flying.
Have fun out there!

g

[springlocked]

I think there is a misconception of what "wheel" landings are. Ask me how I land an aeroplane and I would be hard pressed to be able to explain the mechanics. Frankly I found little difference between floats, wheels and skis when it came to technique. I think a lot of people figure the mystical "wheel" landing is driving it on with power at the same speed you approach at and thus the misconception that it is not "short" field. I guess it can be done that way but why would you. Landing on lakes when room is not a issue you can approach slower and fly it on with power but on short strips you need to hit the target so it's back to chop and plop. You can still flair and land an aircraft in 2 point. I think the better description is stalled landing as opposed to a not stalled landing. Now stalled landings are the world of flight school and initial training and landings because initial students do not have any concept of wheel to eye height. Any landing on most aircraft at a reasonable approach speed will be a 2 point landing.

[Blakey]

Two point for the first approch/light "drag" to test the intended landing surface always. (Unless landing at a well packed established (ie: "known) "strip". After you've done that... It's up to you!

This. I suppose you could "drag" a strip in a three point attitude but I can't imagine it would be any use. You'd find the slush when it stopped you dead in your tracks.

You do not always have to drag your landing area before landing but you should be proficient in wheel landings when you need to do one. "Finding" the slush can be a rather exciting moment!

[PilotDAR]

For me, a "wheel landing" is no so much whether the tailwheel touches as the mains do, but what I am going to do next. I will approach with the predetermined intent the tailwheel will not bear weight until I let it down for that purpose. More to the point, I have found that the most effective way to prevent or arrest bouncing is to reduce the aircraft AoA once on the mains, so it cannot bounce. In the bargain, you get better visibility and control, and an easy opportunity to go around if you don't like the surface you feel. I teach flying boat landings exactly the same way. If a pilot can wheel land well, they will have no trouble landing flying boats well also. I found doing deep snow testing of a tailwheel ski plane, that when I three pointed it, I was committed to stop (and I think I scooped snow with an elevator horn). If I'd wheel landed it, I could have gone around. Happily I was beside a clear runway.

I hear and read about tailwheel troubles. Yeah, they seem to sometimes be over worked, and undersized/under cared for - so I use it as little as possible, and at the slowest speeds possible - and I stopped breaking them! It must be similar for tail skis too!

[TeePeeCreeper]

Two point for the first approch/light "drag" to test the intended landing surface always. (Unless landing at a well packed established (ie: "known) "strip". After you've done that... It's up to you!

This. I suppose you could "drag" a strip in a three point attitude but I can't imagine it would be any use. You'd find the slush when it stopped you dead in your tracks.

You do not always have to drag your landing area before landing but you should be proficient in wheel landings when you need to do one. "Finding" the slush can be a rather exciting moment!

My point (pun not intened) exactly Blakey.

The 3 point attitude/to landing on an unknown surface has the potential to unwillingly "commit" to a landing on a surface which might not be suitable to land on. Hence why the two point "drag your intended landing area first" (in a two point attitude.... Yes one has more control and rudder authority, but F' it your doing so because you might hit that "patch" of slush or if you're really unlucky an old ice fishing hole that wasn't "marked"!) (Don't ask me how I know)

That's the way I was tought although I have to admit that you have far more expirience than I do in this configuration and on type. (I'm jealous)

All the best,
TPC

Edit: (Assuming you don't mind... What is SOP for the 130 on skis?)

[Adam Oke]

I'm experienced with taildraggers, but not on ski's.

Can anyone chime in on the usage of flaps at touch down? 95% of the time, I am wheel landing a taildragger, and I would also venture to say that 95% of the time I am dumping the flaps as soon as the mains touch. I keep the tail up until I want it to come down. Just curious as to what you do with flaps in the fluff.

[tractor driver]

Hey Adam Oke,
on the DeHavillands, we land with landing flap, and generally leave it alone for the roll out as they're hydraulic and take some action to retract. The manual flap Cessnas could be retracted easily, but we tend to leave them down too, or retracted to 20 degrees. Whatever gives you the slowest speed available for keeping the tail up. When touching down, "pinning" it forward works well to keep unseen drifts and such from launching you back into the air. I've got some good pictures, but I'm away from my computer at the moment. I could figure out how to post a couple perhaps down the road.