Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

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77W
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Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by 77W » Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:57 pm

Didn't see this one posted yet.

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/c ... d2016C0022

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/ ... 05781.html
A Fast Air twin-engine plane flying to Island Lake in northern Manitoba slid to a stop on its belly after pilots accidentally retracted its wheels during landing.

Transport Canada said in a report that while neither the two pilots nor two company personnel suffered injuries during the incident Saturday night, the Beechcraft King Air 200 plane itself received "substantial damage to its belly and flaps."

Eric Vermette, regional manager of the Transportation Safety Board of Canada, said the agency interviewed the pilots and made note of the incident, but in the end decided an in-depth investigation was not needed because they know what happened.

"It would not advance transportation safety," he said.

Vermette said after the plane touched down, its fuselage slammed into the runway when the pilots moved the gear handle into the up position instead of using the handle that retracts the flaps.

"They’re not side by side. They are two distinct levers located in two difference spaces in the cockpit."

Vermette said the plane was one of Fast Air’s medevac aircraft, but no patients were on board at the time.

Dylan Fast, owner of the company, said in a statement that "safety of our crew and the public is of utmost importance and has been and continues to be our first priority."

"Fast Air is reviewing this through our company safety management system."

Fast said the company anticipates the aircraft can be repaired and returned to service.

The plane was flying from The Pas to Island Lake when the incident happened.

The four occupants exited through the cabin door after the plane slid to a stop.

A Calm Air flight had to be diverted while the runway was closed.

kevin.rollason@freepress.mb.ca
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fish4life
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by fish4life » Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:19 pm

Maybe they should look into the cumulative fatigue this crew had over the past week of medevacs, I could see this being a much more likely brain fart with an exhausted crew.
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newcomer
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by newcomer » Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:48 pm

What about "don't touch any switch/lever until you are at taxi speed"?
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pelmet
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by pelmet » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:25 am

It can happen easier than you think. Not looking carefully at a switch or lever prior to moving it can cause this and especially for people with a tendency to move switches and levers very quickly. Pushed the wrong switch the other day in the sim. Usually there is no rush.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:16 am

Devils advocate, but probably regression in training brought on by fatigue, thinking flaps up would get more weight on wheels to get maximum braking.

Happens to the best, but most don't reach for the gear handle.

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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by Meddler » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:55 am

Let's not start that whole flaps up after landing thing again. It was beat to death last year as I recall.
I'm more curious about why did someone do this? One switch is shaped like a flap, the other like a wheel, and they are on different sides of the cockpit. I don't buy the "tired" thing. Tired makes you liable to forget the gear altogether. To me this would be like being tired enough to step on the gas in a car instead of the brake. Not being judgmental at all, I just can't imagine tired making me do that, and yes, I am very familiar with tired. Did the pilots switch seats leg for leg? I still can't imagine it but maybe a bit easier to do.
Mb it's bad reporting and it was just a regular old gear up...
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by oldtimer » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:38 am

A golden rule;
Never do anything stupid ---- quickly.
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timel
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by timel » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:11 am

Weird, an exact same event happened on a be10 few years ago. The pilot retracted the gear instead of the flaps. It was a long day of work and a very stressful approach.

Normally there is a safety switch which prevents that from happening. Maybe at high speed or with a frozen switch, it can still happen?

I know it is a habit to retract the flaps in order to reduce the gravel impact or slush contamination. Maybe it would be better not to touch them until the aircraft exits the runway.
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:58 pm

I forgot about the gravel ops aspect, yeah thats true.

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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by Broken Slinky » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:30 pm

timel wrote:Normally there is a safety switch which prevents that from happening. Maybe at high speed or with a frozen switch, it can still happen?
Not having had my head in many electrical drawings for aircraft, I would have thought something like that would be standard equipment. At least a zero airflow reading to keep gear from accidentally being retracted while sitting idle.
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J31
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by J31 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:49 pm

timel wrote:I know it is a habit to retract the flaps in order to reduce the gravel impact or slush contamination. Maybe it would be better not to touch them until the aircraft exits the runway.
Yup! Damage to the belly, flaps, gear doors, belly antennas, propellers, engine power turbine and gear case. All the work to ferry her out to a shop to fix the rest. Probably 4-6 weeks and north of $200,000 by the time she is back making revenue flights.

All because they were flippin switches shortly after touchdown.

I have never seen a King Air manual that says retract the flaps at touchdown to shorten landing distances or save the flaps from stone damage.
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by goingnowherefast » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:02 pm

It has a switch mounted on the left gear scissor linkage and senses the amount of compression in the left main gear. If the gear isn't compressed enough to trip the switch, the gear will retract. (same switch also tells the pressurization when the plane is flying, so if the plane starts an pressurizing on the ground....)

FWIW, the 100 has the gear lever by the co-pilot left knee...right beside the flap lever
The 200 puts the gear lever by the captain's right knee, far away from the flap lever. Much better design.
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timel
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by timel » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:06 pm

Broken Slinky wrote:
timel wrote:Normally there is a safety switch which prevents that from happening. Maybe at high speed or with a frozen switch, it can still happen?
Not having had my head in many electrical drawings for aircraft, I would have thought something like that would be standard equipment. At least a zero airflow reading to keep gear from accidentally being retracted while sitting idle.

I took a screenshot of the 100 supplemental operational data.
I guess the 200 must have identical protections.

Edit: Just saw goingnowherefast post.
So I guess if the airplane is still at "high speed" the gear switch might not be fully compressed, it would explain why it is possible to retract the gear.

image.jpg
image.jpg (59.89 KiB) Viewed 3495 times
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by AEROMONKEY » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:55 pm

this happened with Voyageur 795 years back in YQT...king air 200 as well....anyone remember this? or correct me if i'm wrong?
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by fish4life » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:05 pm

They were quick enough to put the gear handle back down to keep the props from touching by keeping the nose extended by the pictures I saw.
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by rigpiggy » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:01 pm

problem is a nose gear down landing, you have a good chance of breaking the aircrafts' back. A frost heave in the surface is enough to momentarily float the beast allowing the gear to retract. I forget doesn't the 200 have a J hook to prevent handle movement on the ground
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by goingnowherefast » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:21 pm

Yes it does, it's controlled by the switch on the gear as mentioned above.
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by anofly » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:42 pm

I am sorry to all, the pilots, owner, etc. Fellas. Take er slow and steady. If there are two of you onboard..." It is my intention to raise the flaps" one says, the other one says (after thinking about if this is a good idea right now or not, and looking to see where the other fellas hand is) " STOP I understand you want to raise the flaps, But your hand is on the gear switch?" You have time to verify the switches for this operation, and there are two of you onboard, so use you both......
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by co-joe » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:53 pm

AEROMONKEY wrote:this happened with Voyageur 795 years back in YQT...king air 200 as well....anyone remember this? or correct me if i'm wrong?
The PIC in this one is a very well liked contributor to this board who openly discusses how it went down and what he learned from it. 2 Captains doing training, lots of command overlap, CRM mess scenario. It can happen to you. Believe me, he's a top notch guy and driver.

Out of curiosity does Fast Air operate the 100? If memory serves, the gear and flap handle positions are backwards from the 200. Makes for an easy phuk up if you transition back and forth between types.
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by pilotidentity » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:19 am

Ha ha to the pilot above who just can't understand how this could happen...
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by AOW » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:27 am

co-joe wrote: Out of curiosity does Fast Air operate the 100? If memory serves, the gear and flap handle positions are backwards from the 200. Makes for an easy phuk up if you transition back and forth between types.
I don't think they have any 100s.

What you said is not quite true: the flap handles are in the same spot on the 100 and 200 (and 90, 300, 350, 99, 1900...): just below the condition levers. The gear handle, on the other hand, is on the subpanel, about a foot further forward than the flap handle. On the 100 series, the gear handle is on the copilot side (right of the centre pedestal), while on the 200 series (and 300, 350, 1900, most 90s and 99s) it is on the pilot side (left of the centre pedestal). In all cases, the flap handle is shaped like a flap, and the gear handle is shaped like a wheel. The gear handle must be pulled out, then up, whereas the flap handle slides up and left. There are a number of design aspects to try to prevent this kind of accident, but pilots still manage to make the same mistake. This thread has discussion on a similar event.
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by pelmet » Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:19 pm

I had assumed that this happened at low speed and there was a gear switch malfunction. Never heard of selecting the flaps up at high speed on a short strip in the King Air. The shortest gravel strip I operated from was 3000 feet and there was never a problem. I missed the earlier discussion about the idea of selecting flaps up at high speed on landing. I would think it would make things worse not better. Maybe it works on a Cessna 180 with manual flaps where they can be retracted almost immediately.
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by AOW » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:02 pm

There is no doubt that gravel damages flaps on landing, so many operators retract their flaps soon after touchdown. I question the validity of this, since the gravel gets kicked up the worst right at touchdown, since the wheels are not yet spinning, so the amount of gravel damage that would have occurred if you were to leave the flaps down until you reach taxi speed may be identical to following the procedure mentioned above.

There was a bit of debate regarding flap retraction and the effect on braking effectiveness in the thread I linked to above.
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Last edited by AOW on Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by up on one » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:54 pm

I'm not going to argue with you. Clearly in this case, flap retraction was highly effective on braking.
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Re: Fast Air Gear Up YIV Jan9

Post by Tanker299 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:40 pm

Looks like they are hiring again, new ads on PCC. King Air Captns and a second ad again for the king air Capt / jet FO. I feel bad for the guys who work there. That place is a class act and they seem to work people to the bone. 10 on 4 off and a 10k 1yr bond for just the king air but if your also on the jet it's a 2 year 50k bond. Your days off are not your days off if they need you, and if you don't fly you guessed it a day off even if your at an out station plus you just may not get all your so called days off made up up if you got called in. If you want to leave winterpeg on a day off you need that approved. That is the charter side not sure about the medevac but it's prob not better but I don't know.
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