Unpaid Company Groundschool

[springlocked]

This is not ENTIRELY true.

-- well I beg to differ since there is no federal minimum wage. It was removed in 1996 so being a federally regulated industry it is what it is.

[rxl]

[quote="co-joe"]Well, you could always ask the CP if they would consider paying you. Never hurts to ask honestly and with integrity for money.

But, Bring that inflated sense of entitlement or better yet, bring the labour code with you and I guarantee the ramp work you've done that got your foot in the door will be for naught.

Do you want to be right, or do you want to be a pilot?[quote="co-joe"]

co-joe,

What other tiny lapses in personal integrity would you recommend to an aspiring "professional pilot" in achieving their goal?

Since when is it an "inflated sense of entitlement" to expect to be paid for your time in carrying out your employer's business?

[co-joe]

Ok so maybe inflated sense of entitlement was harsh. Sorry for assuming.

But here it is. In 97 Perimeted did an SA226TC groundschool at my college, the top marks all got jobs and they're all airline pilots now and have been for years. Any guesses if it was paid? Any guesses who paid for manuals and training materials? This isn't some new trick the green bastard is pulling. If you want a job in this industry you make sacrifices or you get born with a silver horseshoe up your butt. We all know someone who was the golden child, or knew someone, but for the rest it's hard work, sacrifice, and timing. Period.

OP do you want to be a pilot or do you want to be right? Pick one. Otherwise how about a different career because this one is an uphill slope. Take it or leave it. Their groundschools have been unpaid for a solid 19 years now and probably a lot longer, and you didn't know this? This IS your stepping stone. Take it or leave it and move on. But if you take it, give 110 for the full 60 or prepare to be a healthy scratch.

If you take it, in a few years, you'll probably get on with West Jet, only to find that they barely pay for groundschool and you have to pay for your own accommodations while in Calgary. You could say that it only ends when we stop taking it...ha ha ha, have you looked around the room lately? No pilot shortage of that magnitude yet I'm afraid. If you're willing to die on that hill for our betterment I applaud you, you unemployed martyr.

[fish4life]

When I was at Perimeter I got paid for GS

[ahramin]

Personally, I don't think it's a good idea for the future of our profession to tell anyone smart enough to figure out that you should be paid for coming in on your days off "suck it up or go somewhere else". The smart ones WILL go somewhere else and who are we left with?

[Tail-Chaser]

99% sure that my present employer pays for ground school. The previous company I worked for, both 703, didn't. Hit and miss I suppose.

[Rookie50]

Ok so maybe inflated sense of entitlement was harsh. Sorry for assuming.

But here it is. In 97 Perimeted did an SA226TC groundschool at my college, the top marks all got jobs and they're all airline pilots now and have been for years. Any guesses if it was paid? Any guesses who paid for manuals and training materials? This isn't some new trick the green bastard is pulling. If you want a job in this industry you make sacrifices or you get born with a silver horseshoe up your butt. We all know someone who was the golden child, or knew someone, but for the rest it's hard work, sacrifice, and timing. Period.

OP do you want to be a pilot or do you want to be right? Pick one. Otherwise how about a different career because this one is an uphill slope. Take it or leave it. Their groundschools have been unpaid for a solid 19 years now and probably a lot longer, and you didn't know this? This IS your stepping stone. Take it or leave it and move on. But if you take it, give 110 for the full 60 or prepare to be a healthy scratch.

If you take it, in a few years, you'll probably get on with West Jet, only to find that they barely pay for groundschool and you have to pay for your own accommodations while in Calgary. You could say that it only ends when we stop taking it...ha ha ha, have you looked around the room lately? No pilot shortage of that magnitude yet I'm afraid. If you're willing to die on that hill for our betterment I applaud you, you unemployed martyr.

Couldn't agree more. Except a rampant sense of entitlement is everywhere among entry level employees --- in every industry, IMO. Not too strong a word. The whole world is truly your oyster, for the few willing to stand out. It really isn't that hard, just do what most aren't willing to do. One can do that without being abused.

It's a free market, lots of willing pilots it would seem, sorry to say as entry level employees, there isn't a ton of bargaining power.

The way to change that, is earn respect, responsibility, and rewards will follow.

But they must be earned.

[Sendit]

Ok so maybe inflated sense of entitlement was harsh. Sorry for assuming.

But here it is. In 97 Perimeted did an SA226TC groundschool at my college, the top marks all got jobs and they're all airline pilots now and have been for years. Any guesses if it was paid? Any guesses who paid for manuals and training materials? This isn't some new trick the green bastard is pulling. If you want a job in this industry you make sacrifices or you get born with a silver horseshoe up your butt. We all know someone who was the golden child, or knew someone, but for the rest it's hard work, sacrifice, and timing. Period.

OP do you want to be a pilot or do you want to be right? Pick one. Otherwise how about a different career because this one is an uphill slope. Take it or leave it. Their groundschools have been unpaid for a solid 19 years now and probably a lot longer, and you didn't know this? This IS your stepping stone. Take it or leave it and move on. But if you take it, give 110 for the full 60 or prepare to be a healthy scratch.

If you take it, in a few years, you'll probably get on with West Jet, only to find that they barely pay for groundschool and you have to pay for your own accommodations while in Calgary. You could say that it only ends when we stop taking it...ha ha ha, have you looked around the room lately? No pilot shortage of that magnitude yet I'm afraid. If you're willing to die on that hill for our betterment I applaud you, you unemployed martyr.

Couldn't agree more. Except a rampant sense of entitlement is everywhere among entry level employees --- in every industry, IMO. Not too strong a word. The whole world is truly your oyster, for the few willing to stand out. It really isn't that hard, just do what most aren't willing to do. One can do that without being abused.

It's a free market, lots of willing pilots it would seem, sorry to say as entry level employees, there isn't a ton of bargaining power.

The way to change that, is earn respect, responsibility, and rewards will follow.

But they must be earned.

This is the poorest attitude you could have. Why is it "just the way it is". Why not change the way it is to they way it's supposed to be. This is what is wrong with our industry. Too many people who are ignorant and think of only themselves. "Oh I'll do it for less", or "oh I'll do it when he wont", or "oh you don't have to pay me I'll do it for free". Why is this ok to you. I'm sure if someone offered to work for free you'd be saying "don't whore yourself out". Employees have responsibilities but SO DO EMPLOYERS!

People on here like to complain about those who pay for their own PPC's or work for free but man oh man, someone wants to get paid for training and some loose their shit.

My current company pays for all training, any and all time spent out doing work for the company you are pod for.

[Rookie50]

Sendit,

I'm speaking to a broader attitude of entitlement we see in many entry level employees these days, in all industries. You've seen it, we all have.

I asked a receptionist at a place I was dropping off some donated stuff -- charity organization -- simply to hold the door, for me to carry it in --- attitude was like I asked her to wash my car. Eye rolling, whole nine yards. Like, wow. Attitude. Said nothing, but impression was formed.

And -- ( if this is the norm ) --fine -- but you're confused, no offence, why you're still a receptionist?

I don't advocate employer abuse in the slightest, such as certain skydive outfits that turn my stomach, but walking in every door with a my - rights attitude as a newbie, isn't likely to work too well, either.

Professional, polite discussion with the employer, about training Ect, also has its place and might bear more long term fruit than an adversarial attitude.

[Meddler]

Normally to sit in a classroom and be taught things that will help you get a job, you need to pay for the privilege.

[Meddler]

I can't find the "ducking for cover" emoji....

[Sendit]

Sendit,

I'm speaking to a broader attitude of entitlement we see in many entry level employees these days, in all industries. You've seen it, we all have.

I asked a receptionist at a place I was dropping off some donated stuff -- charity organization -- simply to hold the door, for me to carry it in --- attitude was like I asked her to wash my car. Eye rolling, whole nine yards. Like, wow. Attitude. Said nothing, but impression was formed.

And -- ( if this is the norm ) --fine -- but you're confused, no offence, why you're still a receptionist?

I don't advocate employer abuse in the slightest, such as certain skydive outfits that turn my stomach, but walking in every door with a my - rights attitude as a newbie, isn't likely to work too well, either.

Professional, polite discussion with the employer, about training Ect, also has its place and might bear more long term fruit than an adversarial attitude.

Rookie50 I get your post but we are not talking about some sort of technicality here. It's basic labour code requirements that are not being adhered to. i don't think that asking to be paid for training is some sort entitlement. It's what is required of them by law. I mean there is always some degree of give and take in an employee/employer relationship. If my employer shortest me $5 bucks I'm not calling the labour board on them. But depending on the length of said groundschool, we're talking hundreds of dollars that these folks, who are probably earning a low wage to begin with are being shorted. That is not fair by any stretch of the imagination.

As I said previously, the former employer where I worked and did not pay for training until complaints were made to the board. Now all employees at that company get paid for training and they can thank the pilots before them who fought to get that for them.

[tipsails]

99% sure that my present employer pays for ground school. The previous company I worked for, both 703, didn't. Hit and miss I suppose.

I was paid from the first day of my 703 GS. Sure it was only a week and mostly online, and I did a lot of it at home. But I was still paid.

[rxl]

OP do you want to be a pilot or do you want to be right? Pick one.

This statement is so WRONG on so many levels.

You do not choose between being right and being a pilot. You cannot separate the two. If you do, one way or another eventually it will catch up with you.
You especially do not advocate to aspiring "professional" pilots that they must choose between being right and getting the job that they want. That sort of attitude is potentially dangerous and only serves to drag us all down.

What else would you suggest to aspiring pilots? - A little log book fudge is OK? - Maybe you don't need to mention that little "incident" of a few years ago to a potential employer? - Why not undercut your colleagues already in the industry and offer to do the job for less money? - That ground school your buddy was paid to do, offer to do it for free.

Certainly all employers expect hard work and that you will add value to their organization, but do you not think that any employer worth working for also expects honesty, professionalism and solid personal integrity?
Your pilot colleagues in the industry do.

I do not want to share a flight deck with anyone who has made the choice that it's more important to get into that seat than it is to be right.

[DSoup]

Normally to sit in a classroom and be taught things that will help you get a job, you need to pay for the privilege.

^truth

Not a professional pilot,nor in that industry but seems to me like unless you want to start a career of being a union rep or a labour advocate, YOUR interests are best served by doing the course.

You might be screwing other pilots that come after you, and that's the question you need to answer. Is a career limiting move for the sake of pilot rights now worth delaying your career, or are you in this to get a left seat on a 777 at whatever cost?

I would warrant the people telling you to refuse it are in two categories

A) Older pilots who now have the luxury of telling others they should unionize in order to raise the benefits of all pilots
B) The other people on your course.

If you politely ask your boss if there's a chance of being paid for ground school that probably won't hurt you, however I would make it clear that you plan on doing the ground school either way. Not a great negotiation tactic, but also doesn't burn bridges with the people who might be hiring you at the end of the course.

/

Bracing for backlash

[up on one]

There was some miscommunication as to who would be paid between different departments. Some departments were paying, some departments weren't and some departments were only paying certain employees. Every employee gets paid to do the initial classes and when said employee completes their sim evaluation they are assigned recurrent training as needed.

Now you're probably thinking well why doesn't everyone get paid as opposed to only the first timers. There are a few individuals who have sat through more initial classes then about half of the metro pilots. We all know that one guy who does anything to get out of work and sitting through a week of classroom stuff is a lot easier then loading planes in the middle of winter.

So that's that, if it's your first initial class you get paid. If you complete your sim eval and have recurrent assigned you get paid. If you want to volunteer your time to sit through a class because you love the Ted videos then you don't, end of story

[xsbank]

Don't lose sight of the process here, you are selling your labour and, yes, your expertise. You can give it away if you want, but why would you?

[Meatservo]

My company gives free management seminars at their head office. If I attended enough of these I might qualify for a management position. If I don't attend any of them, I am perfectly welcome to continue being a pilot. Since I took "management" courses in College, I feel I am entitled to be a manager.

What pisses me off is, if I wanted to go to these things, I'm expected to do it on my own time. Of course that would mean I would have to take time off to do it, and I would miss flights, for which I would normally be paid. You guys agree this is bullshit, right?

Well it's the same here I guess, isn't it? Our O.P. is a rampie, and he gets paid to do rampie stuff. His company is offering a course, that has nothing to do with being a rampie mind, that will give him some qualifications that he would need if he were to want a different job at the company. Unfortunately, this course is during the week, so he will miss some of his rampie-ing, which is what he gets paid to do.

So yeah, he's being exploited in the same way I am: by not being paid for flights I don't do if I want to go to free courses on how to do a job I don't have. Bullshit.

[DSoup]

Unfortunately, this course is during the week, so he will miss some of his rampie-ing, which is what he gets paid to do.

My understanding is it was in his week off - hence his paycheck wouldn't be any lower - he'll just have worked more hours for it.

[Meatservo]

Unfortunately, this course is during the week, so he will miss some of his rampie-ing, which is what he gets paid to do.

My understanding is it was in his week off - hence his paycheck wouldn't be any lower - he'll just have worked more hours for it.

Well, he's lucky then- the free course falls on his "week off" period. What's he complaining about again?