GNWT to buy 8 new Fire Boss aircraft to replace CL-215

[Donald]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/gnw ... -1.3441674

Newly-elected MLAs are following through with plans to spend about $26 million dollars for the eight new water bombers.

This is the first time the territorial government has bought new water bombers, which are used to fight fires. It inherited the current fleet of Canadair C-215s, which were introduced in 1969, from the federal government for $1.

The minister of environment and natural resources, Wally Schumann, says it makes more sense to buy the new Air Tractor 802 Fireboss aircraft than to upgrade the old fleet.

"I think the cost of doing that, from everything I've seen, would have been four times or five times the cost of purchasing these new Firebosses," he said.

The government plans to issue a request for proposals this spring for the operation and maintenance of the fleet.

It could have asked contractors to provide a fleet of aircraft as well as operate and maintain them, but Schumann says many northern companies would not have been able to bid on it.

"The biggest benefit of us, the GNWT, owning a fleet of aircraft is the larger chance of Northern aviation companies to participate in the operation of the tanker based fleet," Schumann said.

In the past, the 10-year contract has typically been worth about $25 million.

Schumann said the government hired a fairness commissioner and a technical team to put together the RFP.

The new aircraft are much smaller than the ones they're replacing, and they require only one pilot instead of two. They can also land on smaller lakes, closer to the fires they're fighting.

The N.W.T.'s worst fire season on record was in 2014 — there were 385 wildland fires, which burned 3.4 million hectares of land. The fires were fought at a cost of $56.1 million.

Last summer was the second-worst.

The new Air Tractor 802 Fireboss aircraft, which are built in Texas, are on track to be delivered in the spring of 2017.







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[Independence]

So will they buy new birddog planes too?

[Rowdy]

Another blow for ol' Joe. Will discovery operate them? Or Airspray

[CLguy]

Airtractor 802 Safety Record:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/db ... cType=AT8T

[CID]

One tenth the price for one tenth the airplane.

[lownslow]

I was kind of curious about the accident record of the Fire Bosses too. How does it stack up against the competition (which I guess is the CLs and... Be-200?) in terms of accidents per cycle?

[Adam Oke]

Airtractor 802 Safety Record:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/db ... cType=AT8T

I know you're not a fan of the 802 as a bomber, but is it really fair to tie in Ag accidents into a bomber application safety record?

Both are very different applications and have their own separate sets of associated risks.

Not to negate your previous arguments, but this is bending stats a bit

[xsbank]

That's true, Adam, but that record shows three at Conair alone. That equates to the bad old days in the 70s and the 80s when they used to thunder in at that rate. We used to figure 1.3 deaths a year (which is a nonsense number but you can see the rate) for the Firecats, DC6 and Birddog fleets.

The Fire Boss has serious flaws.

[GyvAir]

Airtractor 802 Safety Record:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/db ... cType=AT8T

Before posting that list, did you generate a similar list for the CL-215/415? Given that there have been probably around 600 AT-802s built and only 220 CL-215/415s built, I suspect the lists would be proportionate.

No dog in the race here other than a natural preference for them to purchase the Canadian built product. If we want to sell that Canadian built aircraft though, it needs to be able to compete in the existing market.

[CLguy]

I never created the 802 list and had no input into it.

Not sure a list exists for the CL's but in 32 years flying air tankers I know of a 215 in Quebec with 2 fatalities, a 215 gear up landing in California and a 415 wrote off in Newfoundland with no fatalities. In Europe there has been numerous accidents and fatalities over the 50 years they have been operating the CL's.

In Canada there was 4 FireBoss's in 13 months.

[GyvAir]

By 'generate', I didn't mean 'create'. I assume though that you had entered some search parameters to have ASN come up with a list.

CL-415/215 ASN wikibase list:
http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dbl ... cType=CL2T

CL-215 Hull losses:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/typ ... 215/losses

CL-415 Hull Losses:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/typ ... 415/losses

(No “Hull Loss” list available on ASN that I can see for the AT-802)

Regardless, these are just lists with nothing to put them in context. No filtering or scaling for mission type, global fleet size, cycles or hours flown, etc.

[angry inch]

I don't think any of us on here need convincing that the 415/215T's are ultimately superior firefighting aircraft to the Air Tractors. Even a child standing at the airport fence can spot the better airplane. Bombardier has ceased production of the 415. How sad. Meanwhile Air Tractor & Wipaire are pumpin' out Firebosses...

They did buy their last fleet of Tankers for $1

[shimmydampner]

The Fire Boss has serious flaws.

Care to elaborate? Are they inherent in the aircraft design or due to the nature of the work? As an aircraft, is it inherently more dangerous than any other single engine float plane? The briefs on the Conair accidents didn't seem to indicate any common theme, although the information is pretty limited.

[xsbank]

I firebombed for numerous years and even the old Tracker, which California banned for a time, could be flown safely. That with an antique (but seriously cool) pair of radial engines. The FireBoss has flaws because of its accident rate, it is flown by very experienced pilots. Its the common theme in these accidents.

A little bird told me the stall indicators/stall margin indicators (whatever the type of system it uses) are/were miscalibrated. I await for further on that one. That one is probably speculation...

Conair treated the first guy to thunder in (and survive) very shabbily, but that is consistent throughout their history - they did tend to treat guys who damaged aircraft that way. I heard that this pilot has moved on to a very successful career, notwithstanding C's attempt to label him.

[Adam Oke]

I've read some of the negative things about the FireBoss and it's accident history, but for curiosity sake, how does this compare to the 802 in land based operations?

I know of many Aussie fire bomber pilots, and the 802 (wheels) is a very common tool in fire protection. They typically don't have too many negatives to say about the use of the aircraft as a bomber. That being said, these guys comes from an Ag background with a ton of experience spraying, so their could be a bias there. What are the experienced bomber pilot views on the wheel based 802?

[xsbank]

I think they are liked by fire guys (I'm out of touch) but the floated version seems to carry most of the problems.

Personally, despite my like of the PT6, I think that single-engine aircraft except for drones are a huge step backwards. Sucking in fuel and burning it in a mechanical device will never be 100% safe. Put 2 of them on there and I'm interested.

Had a PT6 failure on a Dash 7 where it was hardly missed and had a couple of piston engines fail on a Tracker but there was always a spare.

[matt foley]

Has the NWT contract been awarded? Im guessing it has seeming the next free season is only 6 months away and spool up time will be required prior. This combined with Conair advertising for pilots makes me think they must have something to do with operating in the NWT on contract for the first time in years. Anyone have actual information as opposed to my speculation?

MF

[godsrcrazy]

Not sure if its true. I was told Conair could not bid as they are supplying the aircraft and it would be a conflict of interest. Doesn't seem right to me.

[magic wand]

Yes Conair was awarded a 10 year contract.

[jspitfire]

According to the GNWT website, bids are closed but nothing has been awarded yet.

bidders were Air Tindi, Buffalo, and NWAL.

https://contracts.fin.gov.nt.ca/psp/fsp ... _LOGIN.GBL