Float Rating and Insurance

[MattW]

I'm just finishing my PPL, done the written and a few more hours before the flight test. I'm also just finishing the deal on my first plane, a 1/2 share of a Cessna 180 on floats. The flying goes well I feel and I'm being careful. I've flown the 180 and it's certainly a bit more plane to fly but it went well too.
I'll finish my PPL with the school on the 172 because I'm so close anyway, I'm also soloed on the Citabria. Then it's onward to the float rating. It looks like the insurer won't insure me to float train on my 180. I can live with that, there are a a couple float schools close by. But it looks like they also want another 20- 25 hrs beyond the float training as PIC on a float plane before they'll insure me. My question is how do I best get the additional 20 - 25 hrs? Is there any way to do that in my plane, accompanied by an experienced pilot or something like that? Will I need to rent a plane from the school where I get my float rating for another 20- 25 hrs? Has anyone been able to do a float rating on their own plane and be insured while doing it?
Thanks,
Matt

[North Shore]

Maybe ask if they'll go for you flying with a safety pilot/instructor in the right seat for the remainder of the 25 hours?

Congratulations on the purchase!

[MattW]

Thanks, that's kind of what I was wondering, if they'd let me have a supervisor in my plane. I've found that the broker is kind of wishy washy with their answers, like they won't give me any hard numbers on the hours or lay out exactly what I need to do. Even the 20- 25 hrs was only put out there as a suggestion by them, like we suggest you get your rating and another 20 - 25 hrs and then we'll see about insuring you.
BTW I don't object to a supervised 20 - 25 hrs, I'd like to be a safe pilot, it would just be nice to be doing it in my plane.

[LousyFisherman]

I can find insurance for floats but if I have under 50 hours the price is ridiculous. There are places that rent float planes. Not many but they are out there.

LF

[SuperchargedRS]

Maybe ask if they'll go for you flying with a safety pilot/instructor in the right seat for the remainder of the 25 hours?

Congratulations on the purchase!

That.

[C-GKNT]

Thanks, that's kind of what I was wondering, if they'd let me have a supervisor in my plane. I've found that the broker is kind of wishy washy with their answers, like they won't give me any hard numbers on the hours or lay out exactly what I need to do. Even the 20- 25 hrs was only put out there as a suggestion by them, like we suggest you get your rating and another 20 - 25 hrs and then we'll see about insuring you.
BTW I don't object to a supervised 20 - 25 hrs, I'd like to be a safe pilot, it would just be nice to be doing it in my plane.

MattW,

I have made a number of "high risk" transitions in my time as an aircraft owner/operator. Each time I managed to get insurance and clear requirements BEFORE my purchase. I often had to accept lower limits or a higher deductible but only for the first year as I built up time.

I see NO reason why an insurance company would not accept supervision in your aircraft. Basically, they are insuring your safety pilot and not yourself for that time.

IMHO, you need to find a new broker. Make sure you find one that will "shop" the market properly. Some insurance companies have more appetite for certain types of risk and you need to make sure you find the right own. The insurance I ended up accepting were on occasion 50% of the next lowest quote for similar coverage.

Do you have a safety pilot already? Make sure you provide his/her information when shopping.

Glenn

[upup_away]

Hi MattW,

I am a broker at a specialty aviation insurance company and would like to extend a hand.

Feel free to PM me and i'll walk you through the process, or give you some advice on what to tell your current broker

[MattW]

Thanks, that's kind of what I was wondering, if they'd let me have a supervisor in my plane. I've found that the broker is kind of wishy washy with their answers, like they won't give me any hard numbers on the hours or lay out exactly what I need to do. Even the 20- 25 hrs was only put out there as a suggestion by them, like we suggest you get your rating and another 20 - 25 hrs and then we'll see about insuring you.
BTW I don't object to a supervised 20 - 25 hrs, I'd like to be a safe pilot, it would just be nice to be doing it in my plane.

MattW,

I have made a number of "high risk" transitions in my time as an aircraft owner/operator. Each time I managed to get insurance and clear requirements BEFORE my purchase. I often had to accept lower limits or a higher deductible but only for the first year as I built up time.

I see NO reason why an insurance company would not accept supervision in your aircraft. Basically, they are insuring your safety pilot and not yourself for that time.

IMHO, you need to find a new broker. Make sure you find one that will "shop" the market properly. Some insurance companies have more appetite for certain types of risk and you need to make sure you find the right own. The insurance I ended up accepting were on occasion 50% of the next lowest quote for similar coverage.

Do you have a safety pilot already? Make sure you provide his/her information when shopping.

Glenn

I normally would try to have all this organized before the purchase but the opportunity was available now so I went for it. One way or another I'll find a way to get past this obstacle and move on. Just want to make sure I'm flying safely and insured.
I'll give another broker a try.

[C-GKNT]

I normally would try to have all this organized before the purchase but the opportunity was available now so I went for it. One way or another I'll find a way to get past this obstacle and move on. Just want to make sure I'm flying safely and insured.
I'll give another broker a try.

You might want to try more than one broker keeping in mind that each insurance company will only quote ONE broker regarding your aircraft. Sometimes you need to approach more than one broker to hit all of the insurance companies. Note: Out of respect for the brokers and their time, I fully disclose who else I am working with. It also keeps them on their toes, they will push the underwriters more to get the best rates/conditions or they won't get your business.

Try to find a broker with several clients on floats. You would think that an insurance company would give the same quote for your policy regardless of the broker, but I believe that is not actually be the case. My experience suggests that some brokers just have better relationships with the underwriters in certain classes and are better able to "sell" you to them. I would start with the broker that directly insures either your intended instructor and/or safety pilot...also I wouldn't give up on training in your aircraft until you shop the market properly.

Glenn

[redlaser]

Most insurance companies require 30 hrs as PIC, before insuring your aircraft, Now the problem is if you fly with a check pilot both of you can't log as PIC in the journey log book, So you may have to fly the first 30 hrs without the aircraft being insured, but carry liability only, which you can purchase, The other problem is that the check pilot may not want to fly with you since you are a low time pilot and the risk are too high especially flying a Cessna 180 aircraft which handles like a race car, not an easy plane to fly on floats, I now fly a 206 on floats but have quite a bit of hours flying 180's and 185's, and surprisenly the 206 is much easier to fly, mainly because of bigger floats, I've flown quite a few times as check pilot but usually ask that the person I'm checking has at least a 100 hours on wheels.

[MattW]

Most insurance companies require 30 hrs as PIC, before insuring your aircraft, Now the problem is if you fly with a check pilot both of you can't log as PIC in the journey log book, So you may have to fly the first 30 hrs without the aircraft being insured, but carry liability only, which you can purchase, The other problem is that the check pilot may not want to fly with you since you are a low time pilot and the risk are too high especially flying a Cessna 180 aircraft which handles like a race car, not an easy plane to fly on floats, I now fly a 206 on floats but have quite a bit of hours flying 180's and 185's, and surprisenly the 206 is much easier to fly, mainly because of bigger floats, I've flown quite a few times as check pilot but usually ask that the person I'm checking has at least a 100 hours on wheels.

I have a couple options for pilots who would accompany me. It's a partnership so flying uninsured would not be an option.

[C-GKNT]

Most insurance companies require 30 hrs as PIC, before insuring your aircraft, Now the problem is if you fly with a check pilot both of you can't log as PIC in the journey log book, So you may have to fly the first 30 hrs without the aircraft being insured, but carry liability only, which you can purchase...

A GOOD broker should be able to negotiate with the insurance companies to get you though these Catch-22's.

Glenn

[Big Pistons Forever]

Even if you are able to get full insurance as a brand new PPL SES, your initial 25 or so hours should be with an experienced mentor pilot and designed to give you a variety of real world experiences. A good guy/gal to ride with you will not be cheap ( I used to charge $ 75 per hour and probably should have asked for more), but what you will learn will make it worth every penny.

[PilotDAR]

You might find that by seeking/accepting a silly high deductable, hull insurance is more easily had. It has worked for me twice with a low time owners I've had to mentor and help insure. Alternatively, a pilot who you would want mentoring you, should be insurable on your 180, so at least they are insured while you are flying together. I have also done that with new pilots.

[MattW]

Thanks guys, some good thoughts and ideas here. I'll have to go into things a little deeper with the insurer.

[ahramin]

I would get rid of your insurance broker ASAP. There is no way it is going to be cheaper to rent a school's airplane than to use your own airplane and pay the higher premium. There are some very good insurance brokers out there but for your particular situation I would join EAA and check out their C-PLAN insurance which in Canada is done through Nacora. If the underwriters want to approve the pilot who will be training you, sure (remember they don't need an instructor rating). If the underwriters want 25 or even 50 hours of dual, sure. Negotiate the best deal you can that works for you, but don't accept "We can't do that" or some silly restriction like no training on your own aircraft.

[Bede]

The way to do it is get liability only (COPA does this) and fly safely until you get the time. The get full insurance. It's the same case with a new home built until the plane has 50-100 hours on it.

[MattW]

The way to do it is get liability only (COPA does this) and fly safely until you get the time. The get full insurance. It's the same case with a new home built until the plane has 50-100 hours on it.

That was my plan when I was looking at sole ownership but with a partner I don't think this will work.

[redlaser]

Due to the high number of floatplane accidents its always a challenge finding reasonable insurance rates , I'll be putting my amphibian aircraft back in service at the end of this month and although I have thousands of hours of flight time I'm sure the insurance won't be cheap, Also you being in a partnership makes it more difficult in who pays what? For the additional insurance costs,

[MattW]

Well, I finished the deal on the plane today. My partner in the plane spoke with the insurance office and got a different agent at the same office who knew his stuff a little better. In short I can get a float rating on my own plane and be insured so I'm pretty happy.