Okotoks Airport Closing

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Shiny Side Up
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

Post by Shiny Side Up »

the majority share holder of the Air Ranch.


The fact that this has been a careful shell game over the years belies the true intent from the beginning. I'll make an educated guess and say that this individual has a street in the development named after himself. In spite of the line that's been touted all the years about the air ranch's plan to be owned by the home owners (which somehow only 14% as I recall actually ended up with any kind of ownership) it somehow ended up in the hands of this individual, or at least entities he has a controlling interest in. The whole thing has been a mess since he aquired it from Mr. Rowland.
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

Post by blue thunder »

Shiny Side Up wrote:
the majority share holder of the Air Ranch.


The fact that this has been a careful shell game over the years belies the true intent from the beginning. I'll make an educated guess and say that this individual has a street in the development named after himself. In spite of the line that's been touted all the years about the air ranch's plan to be owned by the home owners (which somehow only 14% as I recall actually ended up with any kind of ownership) it somehow ended up in the hands of this individual, or at least entities he has a controlling interest in. The whole thing has been a mess since he aquired it from Mr. Rowland.
SSU, was that a guess about naming a street after himself? Good call.

There was also a huge error in the Condominium Association documents between phases, whereas in some Phases, the homeowners were part of an ownership group of the Air Park, and in other Phases, this was over looked.

At one point in 2003, HSBC was going to walk in and take over the project the following day unless 350K of additional security was provided. Interest payments for providing that security are now part of my legal proceedings with OAR (Amongst other irregularities in accounting). I'm not bringing this up to get you all to shed a tear for me, just saying that if you know people affected by the closure, tell them not to stop asking questions.
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

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My dad was at a meeting recently about this and from his description of the faults that the transport audit found, it doesn't sound to me like any of them are insurmountable. There just needs to be a will to do it. Is the airport manager appointed or voted in? Would it be possible for the home/hangar owners and others with a big stake to form a management committee (as much as people hate committees) to actually resolve the issues brought up by transport?

I stopped in there saturday and sunday. It felt odd having almost the entire airport to myself. So, what's an airport like this worth these days? Aside from the cost of the land, what would be the cost of building a 3000' runway and a small apron if someone had a piece of property outside of calgary?
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

Post by blue thunder »

Posthumane, would your dad have a list of the deficiencies cited by TC? I thought I had read somewhere that there was a lot of 'wildlife' intrusion on the runway. If you Google "Cadors Coyote", you'd be amazed at the hits you get, just at YYC and YBW. Anyhow, if someone has the list, I'd like to see it. I can probably get it through our lawyers, but that may take a bit.
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

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Posthumane wrote: So, what's an airport like this worth these days? Aside from the cost of the land, what would be the cost of building a 3000' runway and a small apron if someone had a piece of property outside of calgary?
I looked into it last year. Cost for a thin gravel base and a thin layer of asphalt was about $1,000,000. this was for 3000' long, 40' wide. for this price, I would have had to do the rough dirt work (leveling, rough grade, any drainage ditches, culverts, etc). Im sure a runway such as Okotoks would be substantially more to accommodate heavier planes and last more than a few years.
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Posthumane
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

Post by Posthumane »

blue thunder wrote:Posthumane, would your dad have a list of the deficiencies cited by TC? I thought I had read somewhere that there was a lot of 'wildlife' intrusion on the runway. If you Google "Cadors Coyote", you'd be amazed at the hits you get, just at YYC and YBW. Anyhow, if someone has the list, I'd like to see it. I can probably get it through our lawyers, but that may take a bit.
My information is third hand, but the things mentioned included:
-Requirement to have a wildlife management program. I don't know if there are any details about what this entails, but I guess there needs to be *something* in place. Maybe a fence around the airport and someone monitoring activity. As you said, lots of other airports have wildlife incursions and I don't think you can eliminate all of them, but TC doesn't want it to be a completely laissez-faire.
-Requirement to have someone at the airport full time, during working hours at least. Apparently this is a requirement for a certified airport?
-Insufficient taxiway markings. The aiport plan includes a grass "taxiway" from each of the homeowners hangars and none of them are currently marked, it's just a big grassy field next to the runway.

I'm sure there are some others, but like I said my info is third hand. I'm not sure why they can't release the deficiencies to the public.
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

Post by Posthumane »

dirtdr wrote:
Posthumane wrote: So, what's an airport like this worth these days? Aside from the cost of the land, what would be the cost of building a 3000' runway and a small apron if someone had a piece of property outside of calgary?
I looked into it last year. Cost for a thin gravel base and a thin layer of asphalt was about $1,000,000. this was for 3000' long, 40' wide. for this price, I would have had to do the rough dirt work (leveling, rough grade, any drainage ditches, culverts, etc). Im sure a runway such as Okotoks would be substantially more to accommodate heavier planes and last more than a few years.
I guess I'd better start adding a few more pennies to the piggybank. Although I suppose having something like 50 aircraft based out of a small airport, each one paying $600-$1000/year lease for a spot would cover the interest on a $1M loan...
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

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I'm not sure why they can't release the deficiencies to the public.
It has nothing to do with can't, but rather won't since that runs counter to their interests of closing the airport. Several things might happen if it was know what needs to be done. First the shareholders in phase one could elect to fund the issues themselves. Second it would be very revealing that Mr. Medd and his manager have been derelict in their duties. The document may well be grounds for several law suits against the Okotoks Air Ranch General Partners. Its also probable that the fixes cited by TC may be of the trivial nature, I have no doubts many of them are since I sat in the last time the airport was audited and there were no insurmountable issues then. One problem in that regard is just plain inexperience and incompetence, multiple times lots of money has been spent on high priced consultants (notably in the past one who had worked for the Calgary Airport Authority) who's solutions and experience reflect large scale airport operations rather than small scale. Little airports don't run like international ones, 'nuff said. One problem my experiences with TC's auditing process is you don't want to promise something that you can't do, which had happened many times, so if they are in non-compliance, then its their own doing.

On the note of specific issues...

Taxiway bravo already has signage. But their is a simpler solution, and that's to do like they did with taxiway alpha. Call it apron area. Aprons don't need signage or marking, the only new marks that would have to be emplaced would be some amber reflectors at the exit onto the grass, and a Runway 16 sign on the entry from it. I sort of doubt this breaks the bank.

The idea that wildlife has increased is a flat out lie. It has decidedly decreased. Since there is now houses where there was hay field, the geese no longer walk across the runway from the ponds to eat seed in the field. In fact less birds are in the pond, since they much prefer the water traps at the nearby golf course, where grass seed is plentiful for them to eat. There are no coyotes on the grounds no more, houses have been built where all the dens used to be. While deer will be a constant problem they are not a huge one. Definitely not worthy of the airport manager's proposed solution to terminate them all. There are no more deer at Okotoks than any other airport. If Okotoks should be closed due to deer, then so should most of the airports in the province. The real problem here is that the management promised a huge unwieldly wildlife control plan, and TC is making them keep their promise.

Full time management has been offered to the airport from the commercial operators that were on the field, for the paltry cost of reducing their rents and user fees. The management repeatedly rebuffed these offers, and instead saw fit to hire the current manager, who had been busy making the place unfriendly. The landing fees and PPR rules are unwieldly and onerus. It should be noted that the school left the primarily because when the lease came up just over a year ago, the management refused to sign one for any time longer than a year. Squelching off your main revenue streams for a business hardly seems like a good idea if you're really interested in keeping it going, but the short lease terms certainly indicate to me that there was no interest in keeping the field open.
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

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Agree with everything you said SSU, and my first thoughts when I heard of the issues were along the same lines - none of the problems mentioned are difficult to solve. The agenda in play here is pretty obvious.
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

Post by CpnCrunch »

So, do you think it is a deliberate attempt to close the airport, or just incompetence and hiring the wrong manager?

The residents seem to be asleep at the wheel as well (apart from one or two like blue thunder).
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

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Its been deliberate, at least since the developer realised he wasn't going to be selling multi-million dollar homes to celebrity pilots. Many residents around the airport are indifferent to its continued operation since it was specifically marketed with the idea the airport is closing, or in many cases that the existence of the airport was a tertiary feature. The idea has been to sell lots as fast as possible, rather than the American model of airport community.

The management (and especially the current airport manager, though I don't know what his title would be now) has consistently moved in directions that would close the airport, though they couldn't do much until the leases the commercial operators held on the field run out. I should note that the management made no secret of the fact that they were unhappy with those leases.

At the end of it though, the parties interested in keeping the airport open just aren't powerful enough to fight the interests that want it closed. They're individuals and companies that can't or couldn't afford to wage the pitched battle. If one is to take note to prevent such future closures and reduction in general aviation, one can't afford to have a "sleepy" aerodrome. They need to be at capacity with as many parties as one can get on the field to wage a fight if necessary. Pilots can't have their own private playground, they need to have heavy hitters on the field, even if that means you have to wait for the odd Navajo or King air to take off and a bit more noise.
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

Post by CpnCrunch »

I'm not sure they really are going to make more money out of the business by closing the airport. The airport definitely was a huge benefit that attracted pilots to live there, who would be prepared to pay a premium to live next to an airport. Now it's just yet another executive housing development outside Calgary that seems to be somewhat overpriced.

They could have built a restaurant there, which would have attracted more pilots and generated more revenue.
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

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They won't make more money, but they'll get money faster. That's the whole point. Land developers don't give a shit about a community's long term feasability, remember that the business model is to buy low, sell high, and do that as quick as possible with the least amount of investment. Forgetting about airside, the residential area has shown plenty of evidence of this sort of planning. Between the lack of storm sewers and sidewalks, to the limited roadway access, and just plain bad layout. Hall marks of turn and burn development. I'm curious to see what sorts of short cuts will be taken when the ashpalt comes up, but I have no doubts that some will weasel out of responsibility and home owners or the town will be left holding the bag.

I've heard estimates that should the runway be turned into residential, it has a value of 18 to 22 million. If someone can put that in their pocket as quick as they can, they will.
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

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Anyone know of a "save the airpark" faction forming? Is there something organized to get involved with?
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

Post by dsm721 »

Just throwing this out there without any real knowledge of the situation but instead of trying to save what appears to be a doomed airport, does anyone know the status of the abandoned De Winton airport these days. I would think it would be cheaper and easier to buy that and re surface one of the runways. I flew over it a couple weeks ago and it doesn't seem to be in that bad of condition, although you'd have to get in on the ground and take a close look. Excellent location, less build up in the area, already a registered aerodrome. Could be a win win?
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

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Shiny Side Up wrote:They won't make more money, but they'll get money faster. That's the whole point. Land developers don't give a shit about a community's long term feasability, remember that the business model is to buy low, sell high, and do that as quick as possible with the least amount of investment. Forgetting about airside, the residential area has shown plenty of evidence of this sort of planning. Between the lack of storm sewers and sidewalks, to the limited roadway access, and just plain bad layout. Hall marks of turn and burn development. I'm curious to see what sorts of short cuts will be taken when the ashpalt comes up, but I have no doubts that some will weasel out of responsibility and home owners or the town will be left holding the bag.

I've heard estimates that should the runway be turned into residential, it has a value of 18 to 22 million. If someone can put that in their pocket as quick as they can, they will.

I say they will make more money, not faster money. The Airport (from my info) never made a dime. It was a lure to bring in pilots and such as mentioned earlier. I can honestly say, that before my legal proceedings, Medd and Winters have said numerous times, "we should have ploughed over the runway from the beginning". I was even told by Medd that the benefits of 'closing' the runway were huge with the development potential it would produce. This isn't an accident folks. You might ask what I have to gain in saying this....the answer is 'nothing', I only stand to loose. You see, I am suing the project for profits that are being mismanaged. Theoretically, I should be on the band wagon to close the runway.......
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

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dsm721 wrote:Just throwing this out there without any real knowledge of the situation but instead of trying to save what appears to be a doomed airport, does anyone know the status of the abandoned De Winton airport these days. I would think it would be cheaper and easier to buy that and re surface one of the runways. I flew over it a couple weeks ago and it doesn't seem to be in that bad of condition, although you'd have to get in on the ground and take a close look. Excellent location, less build up in the area, already a registered aerodrome. Could be a win win?
I've often thought of this. A bit of grass growing through the cracks in the concrete. I'm sure the military built it like a brick sh*thouse. I need to check in to this. Last I saw, it was set up for driver's training and such
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

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The Airport (from my info) never made a dime.
But that wasn't because it didn't have the potential to. Since Mr. Winters had his thumb in that pie there have been lots of efforts that steadily worked against it. For example, one of Winter's first moves when taking over the airport was to toss out the existing pilot base. Maybe its just me, but if you want to sell to a certain market, the your first move shouldn't be to alienate a chunk of that market. Untapped potential right from the start. Food for thought: the Okotoks Flight Center at one time was one of the largest flight schools in North America. Off a gravel runway. Given the scope of operations at YBW now, don't tell me there wouldn't have been money in that direction if the intent was to develop CFX2, as originally intended, with substantial commercial and light industrial applications. Incidentally one of Winters first moves was to shorten the runway length from the original 4500', reducing the potential of the place if he really was intending to market it to the clients he originally boasted about trying to attract. It also squashed the possibility of business that would have depended on the potential for the airport to grow, rather than be fenced in. No instrument approaches, no additional areas for parking, the list is large. That Winters sold the chunk of land to the fellow who put up the white elephant on the field, was contrary to his promises to the existing residents (homeowners who had already had the misfortune of dealing with him) was more sign if the turn and burn business plan. That chunk of land could have been a gold mine developed properly. Instead a structure went up that was too big for a then fenced in airport. One almost would think this kind of bungling to be deliberate.
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

Post by blue thunder »

cpknight wrote:Looks like there is going to be some sort of consultation process on the future.

cf. http://cfx2.ca/
cf. http://cfx2.ca/wp-content/uploads/2008/ ... irport.pdf

"Stakeholders" are encouraged to register before May 6 at: stakeholders@CFX2.ca

If anyone hears of a public meeting regarding the runway closure, can you post it here? I've sent in my request as a "partner" in the development and received a sarcastic reply from Medd. I'm not convinced they will keep me in the loop.
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Re: Okotoks Airport Closing

Post by Shiny Side Up »

abandoned De Winton airport
There's often confusion here as the De Winton strip is still there, and is currently in use by some helicopter operators. The old grass runways there are almost unrecognizable. Bit of trivia, there used to be a flight school that operated out of there until the seventies. Calgary South (still in the CFS last I looked) is the old triangle, and the east west runway surface is still in useable shape, when its not covered in pylons for driver training. It would be an excellent thing if that place could become a working airport again. I'm unsure of the reason but it has been under a pertpetual NOTAM closing it, and is listed as operated by some oil company. I'd suspect unless someone with deep pockets and aviation bent were to aquire it, it will eventually get "developed" as well given the growth rate of Calgary.
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