ATPL Time Rejected??

[Turbine dog]

Hi Everyone,

How would TC refute flight times indicated on an ATPL application?

I mean...if your logbook says you have 1503 hours, how could they possibly say you don't have the required time? What do they do to confirm that the time in your logbook is legit?

Some people say don't even bother submitting until you have double the flight time required?

[Roar]

By the phrasing of your post I'm assuming you've been rejected after TC reviewed your logbook.....?

There is more to it than just total time of 1500hrs
"An applicant for the ATPL must hold a Group 1 Instrument Rating.
70% on the Transport Canada written examinations—two must be written. The first examination (although order of writing is not important) is entitled SAMRA, and it concerns the subjects of Meteorology, Radio Aids to Navigation, and Flight Planning. The second examination is entitled SARON, which concerns Air Law, Aeroplane Operation and General Navigation.6
1500 hours flight experience,7 of which 250 hours must be Pilot-in-command (100 of the 250 hours may be as Pilot-in-command under supervision [CAR 421.11]), including 100 hours cross-country flight time (which must include 25 night hours).
100 hours night flight time as Pilot-in-command or co-pilot.
200 hours cross-country time as co-pilot in a two-crew aeroplane, or an additional 100 hours cross-country time as Pilot-in-command in addition to the above specified.
75 hours instrument flight time of which a maximum of 25 hours may be acquired in an approved instrument ground trainer."

Do you meet all those hour requirements?

And on a more common sense note, it's easy to spot a pencil whipped log book, most people don't have all the requirements neatly sewn up perfectly right at 1500hrs.
How would they go about proving it? Well they could track down the journey logs from all the planes you have in your logbook and cross reference but TC doesn't have the man power, time or inclination to do that so I suspect they just use their best judgement and experience when approving or denying ATPL applications.

[digits_]

My ATPL got approved a couple of weeks ago. I had 100:02 hours night pic on different continents. No problem. All other requirements I had about 20% more than required.

So I don't know what you have to do to piss them off I am quite sure you would get a call in case of problems.

[Meatservo]

I heard a guy I knew got rejected because of his night time. He had been working in the Arctic and had logged some "night" time during the summer. You figure it out. Transport Canada did!

[JBI]

From what I understand (which isn't much if you ask my wife), TC starts with the most recent entries and works backwards. When I dropped my log book off for my ATPL application the licensing officer was great and we sat down for a good 20-30 minutes going over the logbook. They're looking at the big picture, but also looking at the individual entries - do they make sense. Like Meatservo's contact who logged night in the Arctic summer.

It really is a matter of are there any "Things that make you go... hmmm?" If there are, then you should be proactive and talk to the licensing officer beforehand.

[rocket81]

Don't submit your atpl in yul and you'll be fine.

[ahramin]

They also add up columns looking for errors. If your total is 1503 but the individual entries add up to 1498 ...

[lownslow]

I suspect there are a few red flags they look for, the one that they had that "I'm rejecting you" look for me was when the first instrument entry they saw was for the full air time. Luckily that one was legit (providing instrument training on a 500' ceiling day - how responsible that is would be a whole other discussion) and the rest were all 0.2s and 0.3s and such in much longer flights. You know, the actual instrument flying parts.

[JBI]

I suspect there are a few red flags they look for, the one that they had that "I'm rejecting you" look for me was when the first instrument entry they saw was for the full air time. Luckily that one was legit (providing instrument training on a 500' ceiling day - how responsible that is would be a whole other discussion) and the rest were all 0.2s and 0.3s and such in much longer flights. You know, the actual instrument flying parts.

I actually did this for the first few instrument flights I did by accident. However, I discussed it with the TC licensing officer and she saw that I logged all the other hours (WELL above the minimum) properly and she indicated that since they go backwards, it wasn't an issue. I suspect that it was good I brought it to her attention though that it was only the first few flights and I had logged all the rest of them properly.

[goingnowherefast]

One of my co-workers made a simple math mistake. Needed 2 or 3 more hours. They returned his logbook and said send me a photocopy once you have it and we'll process the application. Apparently they were quite polite and reasonable with him.

[Redneck_pilot86]

I suspect there are a few red flags they look for, the one that they had that "I'm rejecting you" look for me was when the first instrument entry they saw was for the full air time. Luckily that one was legit (providing instrument training on a 500' ceiling day - how responsible that is would be a whole other discussion) and the rest were all 0.2s and 0.3s and such in much longer flights. You know, the actual instrument flying parts.

I actually did this for the first few instrument flights I did by accident. However, I discussed it with the TC licensing officer and she saw that I logged all the other hours (WELL above the minimum) properly and she indicated that since they go backwards, it wasn't an issue. I suspect that it was good I brought it to her attention though that it was only the first few flights and I had logged all the rest of them properly.

What do you mean "logged the rest of them properly"?
If I file vfr, I'm logging vfr. If I file ifr, I'm logging instrument time. The weather on that particular day is almost irrelevant to the flight rules being operated under. You can file ifr on a day without a cloud in the sky...it's still instrument flying, still instrument time.

[JBI]

What do you mean "logged the rest of them properly"?
If I file vfr, I'm logging vfr. If I file ifr, I'm logging instrument time. The weather on that particular day is almost irrelevant to the flight rules being operated under. You can file ifr on a day without a cloud in the sky...it's still instrument flying, still instrument time.

Unfortunately that's not how TC sees it. It is an unnecessarily grey area, but they do not interpret the rules that way. For them it's more 'cloud' time or "without visual reference to the ground" time. If your instrument time matches your exact flight time for all your flights you may have some issues.

Personally, I think it should be the way you describe it.

[photofly]

What do you mean "logged the rest of them properly"?
If I file vfr, I'm logging vfr. If I file ifr, I'm logging instrument time. The weather on that particular day is almost irrelevant to the flight rules being operated under. You can file ifr on a day without a cloud in the sky...it's still instrument flying, still instrument time.

Unfortunately (also) that's not how instrument time is defined in the CARs. I don't see any ambiguity or "grey area" about it.

The regulation about what you're supposed to record in your logbook says "whether VFR or IFR". So far, so good. But the licensing requirements are for a certain amount of "instrument time", which isn't the same thing at all.

A PPL requires "5 hours of instrument time". Nobody will argue that if the instructor files an IFR flight plan and the student flies for 5 hours in clear air that this requirement has been met. I cannot fathom why anyone thinks the ATPL requirement for "75 hours instrument flight time" can be satisfied that way either.

[SuperchargedRS]

IMC time and IFR time are very diffrent.

Bombing around in CAVU on a IFR flight plan does not build the skill, compared to flying hard IMC.

[porcsord]

Bombing around in CAVU on a IFR flight plan does not build the skill, compared to flying hard IMC.

Makes little to no difference... Autopirate on, push some buttons, who cares if you can't see out side.

[atphat]

It matters to freshly minted mavricks who think it matters

[Redneck_pilot86]

What do you mean "logged the rest of them properly"?
If I file vfr, I'm logging vfr. If I file ifr, I'm logging instrument time. The weather on that particular day is almost irrelevant to the flight rules being operated under. You can file ifr on a day without a cloud in the sky...it's still instrument flying, still instrument time.

Unfortunately (also) that's not how instrument time is defined in the CARs. I don't see any ambiguity or "grey area" about it.

The regulation about what you're supposed to record in your logbook says "whether VFR or IFR". So far, so good. But the licensing requirements are for a certain amount of "instrument time", which isn't the same thing at all.

A PPL requires "5 hours of instrument time". Nobody will argue that if the instructor files an IFR flight plan and the student flies for 5 hours in clear air that this requirement has been met. I cannot fathom why anyone thinks the ATPL requirement for "75 hours instrument flight time" can be satisfied that way either.

I dont understand what you are trying to say. I did all of my instrument training time for PPL/CPL in clear air, I can't imagine why anyone would do anything different. The time requirement was satisfied. If the time is applicable to the PPL/CPL, I dont see why it wouldnt be applicable to the ATPL.

[photofly]

What I'm saying is very simple. That it's time spent controlling the aircraft by reference only to the flight instruments that counts, not, as some claim, time spent on an instrument flight plan.

[ahramin]

Bombing around in CAVU on a IFR flight plan does not build the skill, compared to flying hard IMC.

Makes little to no difference... Autopirate on, push some buttons, who cares if you can't see out side.

That depends on who we are talking about. It makes a big difference for someone with no experience or no currency. On the other hand if you are flying IFR for a living then I don't know why you would bother to log either IFR or IMC.

[digits_]

Now I am really starting to wonder what Turbine Dog did to get his atpl application rejected...