2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

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sluggo
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by sluggo »

This entire event has been unbelievably unfortunate right from the start. Equally unfortunate that the general public that otherwise quietly enjoys a very decent service will be swayed by the media. I just hope Transat will now be able to come up with an appropriate solution and be able to present it properly to the public. Not an easy task but the public deserves at least as much as both the company and the pilots.
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tps8903
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by tps8903 »

fish4life wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:29 am To be fair did you actually see how much alcohol they had in their systems? Although I would agree that a BAC of zero is the only thing a pilot should have these guys were not showing up for work drunk. They both were under 0.05 which wouldn't even give a 24 hour license suspension here for driving a car.

Again they shouldn't have had anything in their system but I bet a lot of people that shut it down before the 8-12 hours (Transport to company policies) will have a trace in their system the next day.
Yes, I did see actually how much their BAC is. And anything above zero is completely unacceptable of a professional airline pilot, period, full stop.

I have testified in over 100 impaired driving case in my life time, investigated hundreds more, was a qualified breath technician, am a designated expert in court for Drug Impairment, have bagged and tagged countless dead bodies and consoled victims families. I know the toll all to well, and I reiterate zero BAC is the accatable amount for a airline pilot.

There is very little in this world that burns me as bad as people operating Planes, Trains or Automobiles under the influence of impairing substances.
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Zaibatsu
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by Zaibatsu »

tps8903 wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:18 pm
To be fair did you actually see how much alcohol they had in their systems? Although I would agree that a BAC of zero is the only thing a pilot should have these guys were not showing up for work drunk. They both were under 0.05 which wouldn't even give a 24 hour license suspension here for driving a car.

Again they shouldn't have had anything in their system but I bet a lot of people that shut it down before the 8-12 hours (Transport to company policies) will have a trace in their system the next day.
Yes, I did see actually how much their BAC is. And anything above zero is completely unacceptable of a professional airline pilot, period, full stop.

I have testified in over 100 impaired driving case in my life time, investigated hundreds more, was a qualified breath technician, am a designated expert in court for Drug Impairment, have bagged and tagged countless dead bodies and consoled victims families. I know the toll all to well, and I reiterate zero BAC is the accatable amount for a airline pilot.

There is very little in this world that burns me as bad as people operating Planes, Trains or Automobiles under the influence of impairing substances.
How many of those cases. How many of those dead people were as a result of someone who had a BAC under 0.05 because they had one or two drams of single malt?

I’m willing to bet zero.

Extended duty days are a far greater risk and produce cognitive impairment and delayed reactions equivalent to high BAC levels.
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rookiepilot
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by rookiepilot »

CpnCrunch wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:14 am Not really impressed with Transat on this, and I'm sure most people aren't. I guess they're happy to let this dent their reputation rather than risk an unfair dismissal lawsuit.
AT has proven on numerous occasions they couldn't care less about their reputation.

Hey whatever works -- (price) until it doesn't --
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confusedalot
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by confusedalot »

Looks like the stone throwers are out in force.

Their actual bac appears to have been very low but regardless, it still is a huge no no to show up for work like that. And they were incredibly lucky indeed to be let off the way they were, pretty much like winning the lottery. Lotteries do not make a difference between good or bad, deserved or not.

Since their names are now plastered over the internet forever, I would think that they will never work for anyone else, and that would include jobs outside of a cockpit or the flying industry, except for Air Transat. So if for any reason they are no longer there, they will in fact face a life of destitution with nowhere to go.

As much as it is a big mistake and as much as they were fortunate in the outcome, I can't bring myself to 100% skewer a person. Serious and nasty premeditated criminals even get a break eventually, and that, well I have a bit of a problem with. But if you make an alcohol related mistake, we're not talking piss drunk rolling down the aisle, ohmygosh....
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EPR
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by EPR »

Wondering if the company can make them pay "if they have a less than stellar" sim cession?
It just seems there would be so much more riding on the "annual check-ride" than normal in this case.
Are the sim instructors limited to a 'single" failure or can they introduce multiple failures in an airline environment?
It would put additional stress on their sim partner if the latter was the case!
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farfromfree
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by farfromfree »

EPR wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:20 pm Wondering if the company can make them pay "if they have a less than stellar" sim cession?
It just seems there would be so much more riding on the "annual check-ride" than normal in this case.
Are the sim instructors limited to a 'single" failure or can they introduce multiple failures in an airline environment?
It would put additional stress on their sim partner if the latter was the case!
Are you serious EPR? Wake up, it's 2018.
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tps8903
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by tps8903 »

Zaibatsu wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:28 pm
tps8903 wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:18 pm
To be fair did you actually see how much alcohol they had in their systems? Although I would agree that a BAC of zero is the only thing a pilot should have these guys were not showing up for work drunk. They both were under 0.05 which wouldn't even give a 24 hour license suspension here for driving a car.

Again they shouldn't have had anything in their system but I bet a lot of people that shut it down before the 8-12 hours (Transport to company policies) will have a trace in their system the next day.
Yes, I did see actually how much their BAC is. And anything above zero is completely unacceptable of a professional airline pilot, period, full stop.

I have testified in over 100 impaired driving case in my life time, investigated hundreds more, was a qualified breath technician, am a designated expert in court for Drug Impairment, have bagged and tagged countless dead bodies and consoled victims families. I know the toll all to well, and I reiterate zero BAC is the accatable amount for a airline pilot.

There is very little in this world that burns me as bad as people operating Planes, Trains or Automobiles under the influence of impairing substances.
How many of those cases. How many of those dead people were as a result of someone who had a BAC under 0.05 because they had one or two drams of single malt?

I’m willing to bet zero.

Extended duty days are a far greater risk and produce cognitive impairment and delayed reactions equivalent to high BAC levels.
I have scene many of cases of fatalities and crashes with a BAC below 50mg.

I fail to see how identifying another danger that is in all likelihood more prevlent, excuses having a BAC on the flight deck. It's irrelevant in the context of this argument what posses a greater risk. The point is that it does pose a risk, and there is no excuse for a Professional Pilot to have a BAC on the flight deck.
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readyou5by5
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by readyou5by5 »

Laser Tilt wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:52 am
CpnCrunch wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:14 am "They were also accused of acting in a threatening manner and fighting at the Hilton Hotel in the city on the same day."

Not really impressed with Transat on this, and I'm sure most people aren't. I guess they're happy to let this dent their reputation rather than risk an unfair dismissal lawsuit. Which do you think will cost more? Or maybe everyone will forget about this after a while.
In Ontario (and probably rest of Canada) you can fire anyone for any reason....as long as you are willing to pay out. I am amazed Air Transat would not fire them and then pay out 1 month for every year worked with min of 3 months. They could be more generous if they really want this to go away. This is almost impossible to challenge in court unlike dismissal with cause which is very hard to prove.
Since airlines are federally regulated, the Federal Labour Code applies. In 2016 The Supreme Court ruled Federally regulated employees can not be dismissed without cause.

https://www.stikeman.com/en-ca/kh/canad ... abour-code
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

EPR wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:20 pm Wondering if the company can make them pay "if they have a less than stellar" sim cession?
It just seems there would be so much more riding on the "annual check-ride" than normal in this case.
Are the sim instructors limited to a 'single" failure or can they introduce multiple failures in an airline environment?
It would put additional stress on their sim partner if the latter was the case!
That's exactly how we get rid of union reps, women who complain of sexual harassment, gay pilots, jews, Muslims, blacks and all the other undesirables in the cockpit....

EPR did you understand the enormity of your post ?
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confusedalot
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by confusedalot »

Like I said before Gilles, the stone throwers are out in force. As some have also come across, studies in this very sort of subject about human nature paint a grim picture of humans intentionally and knowingly inflicting pain on other humans for minimal reasons that get justified for a number of predispositions.

Yeah, the guys fucked up. Quite badly actually for the standards in this type of work. I think they have learned their lesson big time, and they will constantly be reminded of it for life since their names are on the internet forever. Pretty sure they will never do it again.

We're not talking armed robbery, aggravated assault, manslaughter, or any of those sort of issues. We are talking of a lapse of judgement that is not acceptable in the business. And, these two pay for life, even if no one got hurt.

But hey, this is the sort of society we live in. 36 years in the business brought me into contact with by far, good and great people. Life goes on. But, like everybody else, had the unfortunate experience to run into a few real pieces of work.
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Laser Tilt
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by Laser Tilt »

Since airlines are federally regulated, the Federal Labour Code applies. In 2016 The Supreme Court ruled Federally regulated employees can not be dismissed without cause.

https://www.stikeman.com/en-ca/kh/canad ... abour-code
Interesting info. It really is incredible though, you cannot fire someone for being a nice guy but completely useless in the job. No wonder our Federal Government is a mess.
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