2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by pelmet » Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:56 pm

Cat Driver wrote:The subject of whether or not I flew airplanes impaired during the period my drinking was an addiction the answer is of course I did, there were times when I was impaired because I had a " hang over" which is impaired.

Fortunately I managed to get help and was able to quit drinking completely because I realized I had a very serious problem that was getting worse as time passed.

Chuck E.
Depending on its effect, a hangover could be just feeling not 100%. Perhaps a judgement call. Same with a cold. You are not 100% yet most of us have done so. Plus, you could have a hangover 24 hours later but will still pass the breath test. Did the addiction lead you to flying when still drunk?
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by Cat Driver » Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:10 pm

Did the addiction lead you to flying when still drunk?


No.

I managed to get cured before I got to that stage.

It is not comfortable for me answering these questions, however I feel I owe it to those who may be in the same position I was to tell it like it was.
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by pelmet » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:58 pm

Congratulations on overcoming this problem. Hopefully others will follow what you did.
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by xsbank » Sun Aug 07, 2016 3:43 pm

Hey Chuck, good to hear from you! Take care old friend.
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by Cat Driver » Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:34 pm

Hows it hanging xsbank?

Things are just fine with me.

Every once and a while I get the masochist urge and come here to get beaten on by the experts that gladly accommodate me.

They never fail to give me great beatings and I feel better having made them feel like they are special.

You still in the Vancouver area?

Want to buy a low time Husky Amphib? :)
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by Meatservo » Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:16 pm

pelmet wrote:
Cat Driver wrote:The subject of whether or not I flew airplanes impaired during the period my drinking was an addiction the answer is of course I did, there were times when I was impaired because I had a " hang over" which is impaired.

Fortunately I managed to get help and was able to quit drinking completely because I realized I had a very serious problem that was getting worse as time passed.

Chuck E.
Depending on its effect, a hangover could be just feeling not 100%. Perhaps a judgement call. Same with a cold. You are not 100% yet most of us have done so. Plus, you could have a hangover 24 hours later but will still pass the breath test. Did the addiction lead you to flying when still drunk?

This comment especially brings to mind something that happened a few years ago. My company had random drug and alcohol testing, which meant you'd receive an order to present yourself pretty much same-day at the clinic. I don't want to get into the rights and wrongs of it but I got a notice to present myself on a day off. Days off at my company used to be pretty sporadic in the summer and you were as apt to get a drug testing call on a day off as not. Now, being that it was my day off I had indulged myself pretty heavily the night before, as "bush pilots" (sic) are wont to do on the evening before a full day off in the summertime. Anyway I wasn't feeling fully myself and was rather grateful I didn't have to fly at the time I dragged myself to the clinic for the "random" test. Well, long story short as they say, I did fine on the test even though I felt like a sack of shit. I was pretty curious about what would happen because another guy had tested pretty poorly, also on a day off, a while before this, and the company had attempted to subject him to discipline. This was a fight I was willing to fight which was why I was willing to take the test on my day off in the first place. Turns out the test might detect alcohol but it won't detect a pretty well-developed hangover in the dissipating stage.

Still pretty glad I had the day off though, I can tell you.
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by niss » Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:34 am

I'm curious as to how many people would regularly fly breaking the 8hr bottle to throttle rule? What is the general attitude to having say a bottle of beer and flying 4 hrs later?
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by ahramin » Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:37 am

I've never seen it Niss. In my 20 years flying I only once saw a pilot decide to fly within 8 hours of drinking and that ended with him changing his mind before getting airborne.

The 8 hour rule (12 for most companies in Canada) is easy and simple to follow. As this thread shows though, showing up for work without having had too much alcohol beyond the 12 hour mark is not so simple. I've seen a couple alcoholic pilots who only stopped drinking when they hit the 12 hour mark. The only time they were sober was at work.

Drinking heavily on layovers or the night before a flight is encouraged and respected among flight crews at every level I've experienced. Military, Skydive, Bush, Schools, Corporate, Airlines, it's the same everywhere. Consequently it is not uncommon to see crews showing up for work in less than stellar shape. However, shutting off the taps 12 hours before pushback time is at least as engrained in Canadian professional pilot culture as the drinking that precedes it.
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by North Shore » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:00 pm

Meatservo wrote:
pelmet wrote:
Cat Driver wrote:The subject of whether or not I flew airplanes impaired during the period my drinking was an addiction the answer is of course I did, there were times when I was impaired because I had a " hang over" which is impaired.

Fortunately I managed to get help and was able to quit drinking completely because I realized I had a very serious problem that was getting worse as time passed.

Chuck E.
Depending on its effect, a hangover could be just feeling not 100%. Perhaps a judgement call. Same with a cold. You are not 100% yet most of us have done so. Plus, you could have a hangover 24 hours later but will still pass the breath test. Did the addiction lead you to flying when still drunk?

This comment especially brings to mind something that happened a few years ago. My company had random drug and alcohol testing, which meant you'd receive an order to present yourself pretty much same-day at the clinic. I don't want to get into the rights and wrongs of it but I got a notice to present myself on a day off. Days off at my company used to be pretty sporadic in the summer and you were as apt to get a drug testing call on a day off as not. Now, being that it was my day off I had indulged myself pretty heavily the night before, as "bush pilots" (sic) are wont to do on the evening before a full day off in the summertime. Anyway I wasn't feeling fully myself and was rather grateful I didn't have to fly at the time I dragged myself to the clinic for the "random" test. Well, long story short as they say, I did fine on the test even though I felt like a sack of shit. I was pretty curious about what would happen because another guy had tested pretty poorly, also on a day off, a while before this, and the company had attempted to subject him to discipline. This was a fight I was willing to fight which was why I was willing to take the test on my day off in the first place. Turns out the test might detect alcohol but it won't detect a pretty well-developed hangover in the dissipating stage.

Still pretty glad I had the day off though, I can tell you.
Curious as to why you'd answer your phone and comply on a 'day off' in the first place? What would have happened if you'd woken up and decided to have a drink for breakfast? I understand your company's history here, but if they're so concerned about it, you'd think that they'd have a properly safety-vested 'Manager of Pilot Sobriety', who'd show up just prior to flight time, and have you blow/pee/recite the alphabet backwards/etc...
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by Meatservo » Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:08 pm

It was an experiment. I was pretty sure I could use my "off duty" status to protect me if I'd showed up being actually impaired. Tell me North Shore if you were curious about this, do you have the wherewithal to conduct such an experiment? I did; so I did. You're welcome.
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by Rookie50 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:10 pm

Cat Driver wrote:The subject of whether or not I flew airplanes impaired during the period my drinking was an addiction the answer is of course I did, there were times when I was impaired because I had a " hang over" which is impaired.

Fortunately I managed to get help and was able to quit drinking completely because I realized I had a very serious problem that was getting worse as time passed.

Chuck E.
Thanks for your honest sharing of your journey Chuck. Respect your transparency and even greater your motives for commenting, to help others.
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by North Shore » Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:42 pm

Meatservo wrote:It was an experiment. I was pretty sure I could use my "off duty" status to protect me if I'd showed up being actually impaired. Tell me North Shore if you were curious about this, do you have the wherewithal to conduct such an experiment? I did; so I did. You're welcome.
Not subject to testing (yet?); nor do I get days off during the season, so not much opportunity...
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by AirFrame » Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:46 am

North Shore wrote:What would have happened if you'd woken up and decided to have a drink for breakfast?
I'd say making a choice to drink at breakfast probably would be a good indicator that you might need help... If they detected it in a random test on a day off, how would they know this isn't your "daily" breakfast?

I've had one occasion to be at the controls when I was impaired... A friend arrived at a fly-in and offered me a ride in his plane, and I had already had a couple of beers having arrived a couple of hours earlier. He was completely sober and PIC. He let me fly for a bit, and I could definitely tell I was impaired... Kept chasing airspeed and vertical speed around trying to hold an altitude and fly smoothly, it was a lot more work than normal as my brain clearly couldn't devote all of it's resources to the task. I found it very enlightening.
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by Airbrake » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:13 am

The simple way to start the process of defining if you have an addiction.
Is there persistent use despite negative consequences. If you (or anyone else) can say yes to this, there may require some more investigation.
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by pelmet » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:36 pm

Someone on PPrune is claiming that they were fired....

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5817 ... ost9485103
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by Benwa » Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:06 am

Guys got drunk at the hotel bar the night before... got into an argument with an American Carrier crew. Police got involved. And they proceeded to operate the next morning... at least that was their plan until they were stopped by airport police after going through security.

All hearsay. I wasn't there so flame away.
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by Ypilot » Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:03 pm

Benwa wrote:Guys got drunk at the hotel bar the night before... got into an argument with an American Carrier crew. Police got involved. And they proceeded to operate the next morning... at least that was their plan until they were stopped by airport police after going through security.

All hearsay. I wasn't there so flame away.

I heard they were doing back flips in the lobby, right after they were attacked by some clowns and elephants so superman and batman had to interveen, this is all very serious information. As a matter of fact, my dog was there and he explained it all to my grandma.
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by JasonE » Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:02 am

2 more pilots charged with impaired out of Glasgow....http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/united-pil ... 2?cmp=fbtl
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by TFTMB heavy » Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:38 pm

Guys got drunk at the hotel bar the night before... got into an argument with an American Carrier crew. Police got involved. And they proceeded to operate the next morning... at least that was their plan until they were stopped by airport police after going through security.

All hearsay. I wasn't there so flame away.
Not accurate, it's not nearly as bad as the media made it out to be. Once it goes to court, if it does, the facts will come out. Until then Scottish law forbids anyone from releasing details of the case.

Some of you guys deserve a serious kick in the a**, I am disgusted at some of the comments and attitudes on display.
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by pelmet » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:12 pm

TFTMB heavy wrote:
Some of you guys deserve a serious kick in the a**, I am disgusted at some of the comments and attitudes on display.
I am disgusted by some of the breathalyzer results.
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by atphat » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:26 pm

Exactly. I feel bad for these guys. Blow over the limit.....expect to get flamed.
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by Ypilot » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:47 pm

Guilty by hearsay and medias, that is the world we live in.

Hopefully pelmet and atphat won't be involved one day into an infortunate incident. It would be sad to see their names and family reputations dragged down all over social medias.
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by Meatservo » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:07 pm

"Infortunate" (sic) means they had some bad luck. Like the Dewar's seagull flew over them on the way to the airport that morning as they were talking and shat pure scotch (OK blended scotch) into their mouths and it was just terrible luck all around.

Don't misinterpret my motivation for pointing this out- I feel bad for these guys. I actually think it's probably perfectly safe to fly when you're just a little drunk. I'm merely pointing out what "infortunate" (sic) means, and that another word might have been better. I agree- these fellows are entitled to a fair trial, it's not up to us to convict them based on what we've read in the news. It kind of sounds to me like Glasgow might be a place where you might want to have water with dinner and go straight to your room afterwards- certainly not my idea of a fun layover.
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by atphat » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:15 pm

They didn't spend a week or so in jail because they blew under. They didn't get charged because they were found not to be intoxicated under the law. Grow up. They aren't getting charged in North Korea.
The authorities found enough evidence to lay charges. Again. I feel bad for these guys. But get caught pulling this move.....expect to get flamed.
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Re: 2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

Post by Ypilot » Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:13 pm

Meatservo wrote:"Infortunate" (sic) means they had some bad luck. Like the Dewar's seagull flew over them on the way to the airport that morning as they were talking and shat pure scotch (OK blended scotch) into their mouths and it was just terrible luck all around.

Don't misinterpret my motivation for pointing this out- I feel bad for these guys. I actually think it's probably perfectly safe to fly when you're just a little drunk. I'm merely pointing out what "infortunate" (sic) means, and that another word might have been better. I agree- these fellows are entitled to a fair trial, it's not up to us to convict them based on what we've read in the news. It kind of sounds to me like Glasgow might be a place where you might want to have water with dinner and go straight to your room afterwards- certainly not my idea of a fun layover.
I have been following this story from the start and everyday newspapers come with a different story.

Outside of aviation I witnessed the impact journalist can have and it is not always so righteous, so I am allowing myself a little restraint.
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