Squeeky Bum time at Schiphol

[cncpc]

Isn't it crab, then rudder straight and wing low in the flare? The last bit seems to be missing.

First officer's leg?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11 ... ure%3Anews

[Sidebar]

Looks like a challenging gusty crosswind. Given the spool up time for the engines, I'd say the throttles went full forward as the plane touched down the first time. A good decision likely made with some adrenaline pumping.

[cncpc]

Looks like a challenging gusty crosswind. Given the spool up time for the engines, I'd say the throttles went full forward as the plane touched down the first time. A good decision likely made with some adrenaline pumping.

Not as bad as it looks, or?

[xsbank]

Another pilot who never flew floats or a taildragger. Common problem with pilots who don't know why there is a rudder installed. Usually the fault of the training department and yaw dampers.

[atphat]

Can't remember for the Airbus, but for some airliners during max crosswind landings it is required to touchdown in the crab. Or at the very least it is one of the recommended methods. So yes. It very well may have been the first officers leg and he/she may or may not have flown floats. But that isn't a beaver and you wouldn't fly it like one.

[Nark]

It's cute you think captains don't screw up approaches or the landing.

The A320 is nothing like a Beaver or float plane, or taildragger. Ask me how I know.

[xsbank]

Yes, it is. Rudders perform the same way on every aircraft I can think of. The only prohibition on rudder use is that some large aircraft have a limitation prohibiting full opposite rudder input.

I know that it's rare to hand fly modern aircraft, but how do you intend to stay on a localizer without a rudder? Or get it on the ground during Catll?

[cncpc]

It's cute you think captains don't screw up approaches or the landing.

The A320 is nothing like a Beaver or float plane, or taildragger. Ask me how I know.

How do you know?

[Nark]

Don't confuse my snarkyness with not advocating for genuine skills.

Without at least 1 autopilot, we aren't landing CAT II.

As for the rudder on the bus, the computers are always smarter than any pilot would ever dream. At no point has any pilot ever disconnected the autopilot, or uttered the words, what the hell is it doing? (I hope you senses my sarcasm on that)
Back to the rudder... the flight controls are a "rate" control not a surface deflection (for pitch and roll). So it's mostly unable to slip, until you get close to the ground, where it (computer magic)switches to ground mode, and gives you aileron deflection, thus you are able to slip it on.
Which is why you see more Airbus's jacking up crosswind approaches, more so than Boeing or RJ's.

cncpc,

I've flown both, and continue to fly, ... both.

[Gannet167]

I've never flown a 320, but there are aircraft with flight control computers that don't react well to cross wind inputs. If you tried to land them conventionally, they would roll over. Using the rudder would create some very undesirable results. Some large jet liners have to land without much bank or risk dragging a wing tip or engine cowl. This means touching down with some yaw and scrubbing the tires. This is necessary and normal in some aircraft.

[Gannet167]

how do you intend to stay on a localizer without a rudder??

When I track a localizer and have to correct heading to maintain the Loc, I use bank. The ball should stay centered throughout. Rudder keeps the plane coordinated, ailerons do the turning.

[Eric Janson]

Back to the rudder... the flight controls are a "rate" control not a surface deflection (for pitch and roll). So it's mostly unable to slip, until you get close to the ground, where it (computer magic)switches to ground mode, and gives you aileron deflection, thus you are able to slip it on.
Which is why you see more Airbus's jacking up crosswind approaches, more so than Boeing or RJ's.

I don't agree - you can land an airbus in a crosswind the same as you land any other aircraft.

I land the airbus with an initial crab then rudder to align the fuselage with the runway followed by one wing low to keep the aircraft from drifting.

The problems start when people over-control.

I've never flown a 320, but there are aircraft with flight control computers that don't react well to cross wind inputs. If you tried to land them conventionally, they would roll over. Using the rudder would create some very undesirable results. Some large jet liners have to land without much bank or risk dragging a wing tip or engine cowl. This means touching down with some yaw and scrubbing the tires. This is necessary and normal in some aircraft.

Don't agree - you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

I fly large 4 engine aircraft for a living and I don't land them crabbed. Poor technique imho. I've yet to damage a wingtip,flap fairing or engine cowl.

[sanjet]

Most time landing in a crosswind with a large airliner is quite simple. The number one problem is over analyzing/controlling after disconnecting auto pilot very late.

Newer pilots upgrading from smaller aircraft look outside and align the flight deck with the runway centreline (deviating off localizer) and then turns into a sh*t show on the runway when you realize you're off centreline.
In fact your flight deck should be slightly upwind of the centreline with these larger aircraft,a little bit of rudder and slight wing low in the flare and she settles nicely. You are just controlling momentum.

Comes with a bit of practise. A good topic to bring up during initial training.

[AuxBatOn]

Crosswind landing techniques vary from aircraft to aircraft. You certainly cannot blanket apply a Beaver landing technique to and airliner as both are very different aircraft on pretty much all levels (C.G., flight controls, mechanical characteristics of the flight controls, etc). The Beaver is unstable as soon as it hits the ground (wheels are forward of the C.G.) and as soon as you see a rate developping directionally, you HAVE to counter immediately with the rudder in the opposite direction. A tricycle aircraft will exhibit directional stability on the ground and will seek to align with the ground track after landing. If you land with the ground track aligned with the runway centerline, even with crab, the aircraft will naturally seek to align itself.

In the Hornet, we fly crabbed until about 20' from the runway where we take 1/2 the crab out while cushionning the landing with power. This is a sideload limitation on the landing gear that can have some nasty consequences when some components fail as a result.

In the Mirage 2000, you land fully crabbed. In fact, the flight manual even tells you never to use the rudder other than for flight control computer failure (throughout the flight regime). The flight control computer will null out any sideforce it senses automatically (surely like the airbus does). The flight control inceptors are merely a rate voter and there is no direct corollation between their movement and the movement of the flight control surfaces.

[Rockie]

Back to the rudder... the flight controls are a "rate" control not a surface deflection (for pitch and roll). So it's mostly unable to slip, until you get close to the ground, where it (computer magic)switches to ground mode, and gives you aileron deflection, thus you are able to slip it on.
Which is why you see more Airbus's jacking up crosswind approaches, more so than Boeing or RJ's.

cncpc,

I've flown both, and continue to fly, ... both.

Pitch control is not a "rate", side stick deflection commands a load factor until the aircraft transitions to flare mode at 50 feet

The rudder is not a "rate" either in any mode, rudder pedals command a straight deflection with gain limiting based on speed.

Laterally side stick deflection does command a roll rate up to a maximum of 15 degrees/sec. It remains in that mode until actual touchdown when it quickly transitions to ground mode where it then becomes straight deflection on the ailerons.

As Eric Janson said the crosswind landing is not much different than any other airplane. The only difference is that when you align the fuselage with the runway and lower the wing to stop the drift you cannot hold the side stick deflection like you would in a conventional airplane, because the airplane would continue to roll. Once you have the appropriate bank angle to stop the drift you have to neutralize the stick deflection. Other than that it's exactly the same.

ATA chapter 27 Nark.

[Nark]

Trying to keep it simple.

Not everyone here is an airline pilot with multitudes of transport sized airframe experience.

[ZBBYLW]

First officer's leg?

Seriously? I have seen a handful of Captains with less than excellent hands and feet in the airbus. I was jumping seating on a pretty challenging approach and saw an FO do an exemplary job.

The airbus in my opinion is a great airplane to fly, I have been on it for about 5 years and am actually not looking forward to flying a 737 if that is in my future. The only problem with it, is if you try and fly it like a traditional airplane.

The small percentage of the guys/gals I fly with that try and handle the snot out of it end up having trouble flying it smooth (even in low wind events, some times its hard to watch). It's an airplane that benefits greatly from putting in an input and letting it do it's thing and reacting to that. Mind you most airplanes are like that, but with the flight logic it's especially true to the bus in my opinion.

It does indeed get more difficult to deal with in gusty conditions but that is true in all airplanes. It really needs the same principals it's just sometime more difficult to apply.

Yes a nice decrab works very well in the bus and you should be able to land it pretty much straight on the centre line every time.

[PW150A]

The airline in this video is Swiss, their procedure for crosswind landing on a wet runway is to land the aircraft with a slight crab and make a "positive" landing, as opposed to holding it off and floating above the runway.
My guess is that the PF applied enough rudder to align the aircraft with the centreline but then drifted off to the side before touching down.

[Eric Janson]

Most time landing in a crosswind with a large airliner is quite simple. The number one problem is over analyzing/controlling after disconnecting auto pilot very late.

Newer pilots upgrading from smaller aircraft look outside and align the flight deck with the runway centreline (deviating off localizer) and then turns into a sh*t show on the runway when you realize you're off centreline.
In fact your flight deck should be slightly upwind of the centreline with these larger aircraft,a little bit of rudder and slight wing low in the flare and she settles nicely. You are just controlling momentum.

Comes with a bit of practise. A good topic to bring up during initial training.

The problem these days is that it is the Blind leading the Blind when it comes to training. People are not being taught how to land in crosswinds.

I do the same as you (I put the cockpit over the upwind edge as we have a long wheel base) - works very well and it is easy to land on the centreline.

I used to sit through landings where the aircraft was allowed to drift to the downwind side of the runway. So now in addition to the crab for the wind there is additional crab to try and get back on the centreline. The aircraft would still be on the downwind side of the runway crossing the threshold. At this point kicking it straight would put the main wheels in the grass. At this point the Pilot Flying had run out of ideas.

Sh*t show sums up the resulting firm touchdown and violent swing as the aircraft aligns with the runway. Why make it so tough when you can make it easy for yourself?

After sitting through this over and over again I finally started briefing my colleague what I wanted him to do.

@ZBBYLW

I went from the 757 to the A320 - took about a year to feel comfortable with the aircraft and adjust to the airbus philosophy.

My guess would be that going from the airbus to the 737 would be more difficult (and a step down in Automation).

[ahramin]

From the Airbus FBW FCTM

In crosswind conditions, a crabbed-approach wings-level should be flown with the aircraft (cockpit) positioned on the extended runway centerline until the flare.

In the case of strong crosswind, in the de-crab phase, the PF should be prepared to add small bank angle into the wind in order to maintain the aircraft on the runway centerline. The aircraft may be landed with a partial de-crab (residual crab angle up to about 5 °) to prevent excessive bank. This technique prevents wingtip (or engine nacelle) strike caused by an excessive bank angle. As a consequence, this may result in touching down with some bank angle into the wind (hence with the upwind landing gear first).

The Airbus Briefing Notes on Crosswind Landings says 5° of bank and 5° of crab at touchdown is sufficient at the maximum crosswind limit.

The important thing is to control the drift. Doesn't matter how pretty your technique, if you aren't tracking straight down the runway it's time to go around.