Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
CpnCrunch
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4011
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by CpnCrunch »

As far as I can tell, both unionized and non-unionized employers have to provide justification, it is just that there are more hurdles for unionized employers.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by Rockie »

CpnCrunch wrote:As far as I can tell, both unionized and non-unionized employers have to provide justification, it is just that there are more hurdles for unionized employers.
You're right, the extra hurdle is the collective agreement. But since every collective agreement must comply with the law the ultimate hurdle is the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and privacy laws.
---------- ADS -----------
 
TuckerDog
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:33 pm

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by TuckerDog »

First ever post, but this one kinda bugs me. You guys can argue all you want about what is ethical and what not in this situation. But what this situation boils down to is two things. 1. Garneau knee-jerked over reacted by sending out his letter which I think you all agree with. 2. More importantly, nothing, absolutely nothing legally will happen to this pilot. In a pure technical sense he didn't do anything wrong other than exercise extremely poor judgement.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
complexintentions
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2183
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: of my pants is unknown.

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by complexintentions »

CpnCrunch wrote:
complexintentions wrote:False positives happen. Happened to me. Stressful. But even in a supposedly repressive state like the UAE it wasn't an issue. Canada has far more legal protections.
As I understand it, you can have false positives for the breath test, but that's not really a big deal because they will do a more accurate blood test. There don't seem to be any false positives for the blood test as far as I can see. You can get a positive result without drinking alcohol if your gut is creating a lot of alcohol, but that's not really a false positive because you do in fact have too much alcohol in your blood, and shouldn't be flying/driving.
Just to clarify, my false positive wasn't for alcohol, it was for drugs so neither breath nor blood sample. At EK the random tests are for both, blow in the breathalyzer for alcohol and submit a urine sample for drugs. The first urine test was positive. After a quick second test with a different strip was negative, I asked him what the false positive had been for - he said methadone! (Funny now - then, not so much.) Chemical testing and interactions are much more complicated than alcohol. But the tests also reflect that and are getting more sophisticated all the time. At any rate off I went. In about a decade I think I was tested four times. Never a problem, even in that "despotic" state.

I think the next time a TC inspector asks me to prove I'm qualified by producing my license I'll tell him I can't, it's my private information. If he has a problem with that I'll just explain that to make a random request for the status of something like that is invasive and against my rights. I mean, if the amount of alcohol in my blood is my business and no one else's, then why should he get to find out if I'm legally qualified to do the flight?

I know, I know. The mantra we're repeating is "it's against our legal right to privacy". I'm still waiting to hear exactly why some facts about our ability to perform our job are considered private and some are not. I'm no more afraid of having my breath tested than I am having my skills tested, or proving I meet the standard in either case. I don't want a pilot who failed a breathalyzer test flying my plane any more than I want a pilot who failed his PPC flying it. Maybe on my next recurrent I should object to being tested on the grounds that they should just presume I'm competent until I demonstrate that I'm not?

Apparently some wish to dress up random testing as gross government interference. Hate to break it to you, but the government already plays a fairly interfering role in the licensing and certification of a professional pilot.

Don't worry Rockie, your right to have illicit substances in your body and not get caught is still safe for now! Just make sure to dial it back a bit before the annual medical and you're gold.

I'm sure that's what they were fighting for in WW2, since that's the level of rhetoric we're getting to. Just wish I had a flag to wave.
---------- ADS -----------
 
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
Mostly Harmless
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 397
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:10 am
Location: Betelgeuse

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by Mostly Harmless »

complexintentions wrote:
I'm still waiting to hear exactly why some facts about our ability to perform our job are considered private and some are not.
Therein lies the reason you will never see the other point of view. You are asking us to defend why we should be allowed to keep a right we already have. I'm still waiting to hear a reason why I should submit to your random testing. What does it solve, cure or prevent that the current system does not? Prove your case.

This discussion isn't "Why shouldn't we" it is "Why should we"?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by Rockie »

complexintentions wrote:I think the next time a TC inspector asks me to prove I'm qualified by producing my license I'll tell him I can't, it's my private information. If he has a problem with that I'll just explain that to make a random request for the status of something like that is invasive and against my rights. I mean, if the amount of alcohol in my blood is my business and no one else's, then why should he get to find out if I'm legally qualified to do the flight?
It's time you moved back to Canada to re-learn what rights are. You've been living far too long in places where you have none and it's become your normal.
---------- ADS -----------
 
7ECA
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1281
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:33 pm

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by 7ECA »

https://www.skiesmag.com/press-releases ... ght-crews/

And, the big boys are covered - moving on...
---------- ADS -----------
 
trey kule
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4762
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:09 pm

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by trey kule »

Canada’s largest passenger air carriers are also required to have a Safety Management System (SMS) in place to help them identify safety risks before they become bigger problems and ensure that safety is part of their day-to-day culture. This includes having proper procedures in place to make sure pilots are fit to fly. -
Not bad.. They only used the word "safety" three times in that paragraph. Garneau is obviously mellowing out TC.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
User avatar
complexintentions
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2183
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: of my pants is unknown.

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by complexintentions »

Rockie wrote:
complexintentions wrote:I think the next time a TC inspector asks me to prove I'm qualified by producing my license I'll tell him I can't, it's my private information. If he has a problem with that I'll just explain that to make a random request for the status of something like that is invasive and against my rights. I mean, if the amount of alcohol in my blood is my business and no one else's, then why should he get to find out if I'm legally qualified to do the flight?
It's time you moved back to Canada to re-learn what rights are. You've been living far too long in places where you have none and it's become your normal.
LOL! The supreme arrogance to suggest Canada is the place "to re-learn what rights are". I think you nailed all of the Canadian stereotypes in one go there: smugness, false sense of superiority, and ignorance of the world outside your borders (while utterly convinced of the opposite). If you think being able to shield yourself from being asked to simply prove you're not impaired as you go to work to fly an aircraft is some great victory of "rights", then have at 'er while I wave the flag and sing Oh Canada. Just try not to act too surprised the next time Captain Six-Pack shows up and isn't detected by those alert CATSA folk.

Nah, the only thing that's become my "normal" is being consistently employed and making a great living while paying low taxes. All dubious prospects in Canada. You're correct in one sense, I don't have the same sense of entitlement as you when it comes to rights. But I just roll with whatever I'm dealt, and I've never found D&A testing to be particularly onerous. Sure, I'd rather not do it. I'd also prefer not to be subjected to sim training twice a year or poked and prodded by the doc regularly. Still, somehow I've managed to successfully get past all of those immense hurdles without it devolving into the draconian nightmare a few like to hint darkly at. And I'm about as cynical and suspicious as they come.

But you know best. You live in Canada! :mrgreen:
Mostly Harmless wrote:
complexintentions wrote:
I'm still waiting to hear exactly why some facts about our ability to perform our job are considered private and some are not.
Therein lies the reason you will never see the other point of view. You are asking us to defend why we should be allowed to keep a right we already have. I'm still waiting to hear a reason why I should submit to your random testing. What does it solve, cure or prevent that the current system does not? Prove your case.

This discussion isn't "Why shouldn't we" it is "Why should we"?

Hmmm. If you can't quite grasp what random drug and alcohol testing is intended to prevent, I'm afraid I may not be able to explain it to you. When you see the not-infrequent accounts in the news of pilots being caught drunk, by security or colleagues or whatever, do you really think that means there are none that AREN'T being detected? Surely you're not that facile.

Of course I see the other point of view. I am absolutely against any invasion of privacy as it pertains to conduct in one's personal life. But a professional pilot at work is neither in a personal nor private setting, they are in a position of great responsibility and consequence. If you cannot see the difference between personal and professional then you will probably never be able to consider that maybe the expectation of privacy in the two settings could reasonably also be different.
---------- ADS -----------
 
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by Rockie »

complexintentions wrote:The supreme arrogance to suggest Canada is the place "to re-learn what rights are".
Arrogant? I don't think so. Canada is just one of many countries in the world that value and protect human rights, and given our history with indigenous peoples I'd argue many countries are better at it than we are. So you know where you can stick your "arrogant" accusations.

My mistake here was assigning you a Canadian identity as it is your place of birth, but you've previously made clear you consider your Canadian passport just another item in your collection. I'd be just as happy if you went to one of those other countries to reacquaint yourself with rights you used to have but have forgotten.
---------- ADS -----------
 
CD
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2731
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:13 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by CD »

Interesting article published today (February 24, 2017):
Has my pilot had too much to drink? It depends where you fly

by Alanna Petroff @AlannaPetroff
February 24, 2017: 8:59 AM ET

How much alcohol is too much for a pilot who's about to take flight?

Believe it or not, the answer varies depending on where your flight departs from -- and where it lands.

There are no standardized international rules on pilot alcohol consumption and testing. Instead, the International Civil Aviation Organization issues guidance and then countries set their own regulations, limits, testing regimes and punishments.

Despite being a rarity, it's an issue that has received extra attention after a series of high profile incidents. In late December, a pilot was found passed out in the cockpit before a scheduled Boeing 737 flight in Canada. In mid-2016, two pilots were arrested in Scotland on suspicion of violating alcohol rules before a flight to New Jersey.

The December arrest prompted Canada to take another look at its rules. The European Union is also considering changes.

Here's a look at how the rules work:


Who can fly

In India, which boasts the world's strictest rules, pilots aren't allowed to drink within 12 hours of a flight and must have absolutely zero alcohol in their system.

"0.001% is also a violation," said Lalit Gupta, a senior official at India's Directorate General of Civil Aviation.

In the U.S., pilots are allowed to have a trace amount of alcohol in their system -- up to 0.04% blood alcohol concentration -- and must have eight hours between "bottle to throttle". (The 0.04% level is half the 0.08% legal limit for U.S. drivers on the roads.)


Who gets tested and when

Alcohol testing also varies by country: India subjects pilots to a breathalyzer test before each of its 2 million annual flights, while the U.S. conducts between 11,000 to 13,000 random alcohol checks in a typical year.

The U.S. tests caught 10 pilots violating the rules in 2015.

India's stricter regulations caught 46 pilots in 2016, according to the country's Directorate General of Civil Aviation.

"If you set a zero percent tolerance limit and test everyone, you're going to have more positives," said James Stamp, global head of aviation at KPMG. "It's just a fact."

In Europe, each nation sets their own alcohol rules and then airlines develop and implement compliance procedures.


Safety risk

Testing can help ground pilots before they do any real damage. But there are still documented cases of alcohol contributing to aviation accidents.

The most comprehensive data, from consulting firm JACDEC, showed there were 11 commercial aviation accidents linked to alcohol since 1980, out of a total of nearly 12,000 incidents.

The private accident-tracking group Aviation Safety Network counted five global commercial aviation accidents linked to alcohol since 1980.

The most recent documented commercial incident occurred in east Russia in 2012. A small plane crash killed 10 of the 14 people on board, and alcohol was later found in the blood of its two crew members.

An earlier Russian crash, in 2011, killed 47 people. The incident was linked to alcohol, leading authorities to revoke the airline's license.

Still, only a tiny fraction of aviation accidents are linked to alcohol.

"Let's be fair, air travel has become an extremely, extremely safe way of travel," said Jan Richter, founder of JACDEC.

That's a sentiment echoed by pilots unions, which defend current regulations as sufficient.

"Instances of substance abuse are extremely rare among the approximately 100,000 professional airline pilots in the United States who safely fly passengers and cargo on more than 27,000 flights every day," the U.S.-based Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement.


New regulations?

Stricter regulations are on the way, however, in some countries.

Canada's transport minister has pledged to "enhance aviation safety" after the December incident in which a pilot was charged with having control of an aircraft while impaired.

Europe's top regulator is also expected to introduce rules requiring more systematic alcohol tests later this year.

The changes are a response to the 2015 Germanwings crash that killed 150 people. The plane's co-pilot, who was being treated for depression, crashed the aircraft into the French Alps. The crash has not been linked to alcohol, but it prompted officials to get more serious about testing pilots to ensure they're fit to fly.

Russia is also reportedly considering stricter pilot testing, but the country's regulators did not respond to requests for comment.

The modern U.S. rules on testing were implemented in response to several alcohol-related accidents in the late 1980s.


Crime and punishment

There are also differences in the punishments doled out to pilots found to be violating alcohol rules.

In India, pilots have their license suspended for three months after a first offense, and three years after a second offense. A third offense means they're booted from the profession for life. India does not offer a rehabilitation program for pilots.

Meanwhile, pilots caught in the U.S. are more likely to face criminal charges and must reapply for their pilot's license after successfully completing a rehab program.

The U.S. substance abuse program for pilots is run by industry unions, aviation firms and the Federal Aviation Administration. The program has helped rehabilitate over 4,500 professional pilots, according to the program's administrators.

-- Rishi Iyengar, Sugam Pokharel, Medhavi Arora, Jon Ostrower and Serenitie Wang contributed reporting.

CNNMoney (London)
First published February 24, 2017: 7:38 AM ET
---------- ADS -----------
 
B208
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 700
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:00 pm

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by B208 »

Those who are citing this as a simple case of privacy rights are mistaken. Everybody has rights but sometimes the rights of one person come into conflict with the rights of another person. The purpose of the law is to decide which rights take precedence. In the case at hand we have to balance off one person's right to personal privacy against countless other peoples' right to safety of life. As pilots, we put ourselves into a position of trust. It is not unreasonable to expect us to prove that we are capable of fulfilling those obligations, (for the love of God, the doctor sticks his finger up our rear ends once a year to ensure that we are medically capable of fulfilling our obligations; Any one who will submit to that but would complain about a random urine test hasn't got their head quite right). Asking a pilot who is about to take command of an aircraft to prove that they are sober is an acceptable infringement of their right to privacy. An unacceptable infringement would be to grab random people off the street and give them drug tests.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by Rockie »

B208 wrote:The purpose of the law is to decide which rights take precedence.
Precisely. It's for the courts to decide, not us. Precedent cited in the links provided earlier though suggest the aviation community hasn't come close to requiring that kind of infringement on individual rights.
---------- ADS -----------
 
B208
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 700
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:00 pm

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by B208 »

Rockie wrote:
B208 wrote:The purpose of the law is to decide which rights take precedence.
Precisely. It's for the courts to decide, not us. Precedent cited in the links provided earlier though suggest the aviation community hasn't come close to requiring that kind of infringement on individual rights.
Well, if you want to put absolute faith in the courts, go ahead. I will point out that in days gone by the courts did not consider women or aboriginals to be people; My faith in the members of the bench is limited.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2394
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by Old fella »

B208 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
B208 wrote:The purpose of the law is to decide which rights take precedence.

Well, if you want to put absolute faith in the courts, go ahead. I will point out that in days gone by the courts did not consider women or aboriginals to be people; My faith in the members of the bench is limited.

You are watching too much Law and Order as well as CSI cops and robber TV garbage shows
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Old fella on Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by Rockie »

B208 wrote:Well, if you want to put absolute faith in the courts, go ahead.
Who else would you suggest?
---------- ADS -----------
 
CD
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2731
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:13 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by CD »

:wink:

Image
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by Rockie »

CD wrote::wink:

Image
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
---------- ADS -----------
 
trey kule
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4762
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:09 pm

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by trey kule »

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I seem to recall a similar reaction by know it all socialists when the now president of the United States announced his candidacy.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
B208
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 700
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:00 pm

Re: Government to Consider Random Alcohol testing for pilots

Post by B208 »

Rockie wrote:
B208 wrote:Well, if you want to put absolute faith in the courts, go ahead.
Who else would you suggest?
I would suggest that you have absolute faith in nothing and no one.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”